Autism & BDSM: Am I Kinky? with Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti

On this week’s episode, we’re joined by the wonderful Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti! Gloria (she/her) is an educator and community discussion facilitator who has been teaching workshops on shame, consent, neurodivergence, and identity in kink communities for several years. As a late-diagnosed autistic woman, she brings both lived experience and thoughtful dialogue to conversations about communication, ethics, and belonging in BDSM spaces. This week, she’s answering listener questions about neurodivergence and kink with us! If you’ve ever wondered if you might be kinky, this episode is for you. We’re also giving some suggestions about how to tell your long-term partner that you’d like to explore kink in the bedroom.

We're answering:

• I’ve wondered for a while now if I’m kinky or if I just like thinking about kinky things. I’m ADHD and Autistic and have only ever had three partners but we never did anything but what most would call vanilla. Single now so nothing fun’s happening lol. But how do I know if I’m kinky or if it’s just fun to think about?
  
  
• Hello Aces, I am a 45 yr old late diagnosis autistic woman who has been married for ten years this August. I need help knowing how to tell my husband that I want us to be more adventurous between the sheets. How do I do this? I have never asked for anything of the sort and never complained about our romps in the bedroom. Thank you for any suggestions

BTW: This is part 1 of our 3-parter mini series on kink as we look forward to an event later this month. It’s called THRIVE and it’s a virtual BDSM and mental health conference. THRIVE is from May 29 - 31st, all online, and it’s by donation - your donation towards your ticket ends up going right to the volunteer staff and presenters! (This is for all audiences, not just therapists!)

Show notes: 

• Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GloriaJacksonNefertiti
• Gloria’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gloriajacksonnefertiti/
• Gloria’s linktree: https://linktr.ee/gloriajn
• Gloria's recorded presentation on Autism, Kink, and Consent: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KgodjGR59KWPuyvC-ykANaYMr4AUkwdX/view?usp=drive_link

To ask us questions, fill out the form at www.neurokink.org/auys

Find more content on Patreon (18+): www.patreon.com/AcesUpYourSleevePodcast

Sabrina at www.radicalingingishtsconsulting.com or @radicalinsightsconsulting on social media (FB, IG)

Kade at www.cryptidlearns.com or @cryptidlearns on social media (FB, IG)

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:06

This is the Aces Up Your Sleeve podcast, and we're the Aces Up Your Sleeve in relationships from romantic to workplace, parental to platonic, your relationship with yourself, and everything in between. Led us to autistic aspect kinky therapist to be your secret weapon in neurodivergent life.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

And here's your disclaimer: this is not therapy or therapeutic advice, and we're not on the clock. What you'll hear are our thoughts on different topics, what we might do in your shoes, and how we've supported others through similar situations. Hello and welcome back to the Aces Up Your Sleeve podcast. I'm your host, Sabrina, and I'm Cade. And we are super excited for this episode. This is the first part of our Kink mini series. So we're going to be sharing more in the next two episodes, but we'll be presenting at a virtual BDSM and mental health conference called Thrive from May 29th to May 31st. Registration is by donation, and your donation ends up going right to the volunteer staff and presenters, which what that means is it's pay what you can. Find out more info at thrive virtualcon.com, linked in the show notes. For now, we have a wonderful guest with us today who Cade actually met at the previous Thrive conference. We're joined by Gloria Jackson Nefertini. Gloria uses she, her pronouns, and is an educator and community discussion facilitator who has been teaching workshops on shame, consent, neurodivergence, and identity in kink communities for several years. As a late diagnosed autistic woman, she brings both lived experience and thoughtful dialogue to conversations about communication, ethics, and belonging in BDSM spaces. And we're so excited to have her here today. Yeah, thanks for joining us. Yeah, I think a lot of those things in your intro and kind of what you the work that you do is so very aligned with our goals for this podcast as well.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Great, great. And we've always got listener questions about such a variety of topics that I think today's questions for the main episode and the bonus content are really well within your knowledge, your wheelhouse, and your lived experience.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yes. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Great. Our first one, uh, someone writes in and says, I've wondered for a while now if I'm kinky or if I just like thinking about kinky things. I'm ADHD in Autistic and have only ever had three partners, but we never did anything but what most would call vanilla. Single now, so nothing fun's happening, lol. But how do I know if I'm kinky or if it's just fun to think about?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

I think if you believe you're kinky, then you are. You know, as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah, it's almost like neurodivergence, right? Where it's like it is more about your will than any like actual, like it's not like breaking your leg, where it's like either you have a broken leg or you do not have a broken leg. It's more of oh, I'm identifying with these interests and the way that like I have enjoyment of this concept. Yes. There you go. That's kink. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

And that just makes things so much easier. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

Very similar to folks who are like, Am I bisexual or queer? I have fantasies about XYZ people or I'm attracted to XYZ genders, but I've never acted on it. It doesn't make you less potentially queer for the fact that you've never done anything.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Right, right, right. And for some people, the kink lives in the joy of it, like not the doing of it. Right. You know, there are plenty of kinky asexual people, which again, yeah, who this podcast is made by, right? Who are like wouldn't ever want to find themselves in the physical situation, but really enjoy the fantasy of it.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

And I actually I uh also kind of compare that to being polyamorous, you know, because right now I'm at a point in my life where, well, I I have two sweeties, and but since the pandemic, our relationships have drastically changed. You know, I'm still in relationships with them, but um you know, they've definitely changed. And it's not that I don't have any partners, but I I would just rather call them my sweeties, you know, in instead of partners. And so part of me thinks that, well, you know, since I don't really consider them partners anymore, um, does that mean I'm no longer a polyamorous? And I just have to remember that polyamory isn't what you do, you know, it's what you are. To me, that's the the same as being kinky.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

Yeah, so true.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Or bisexual, you know, e even if it's something that you just think about, um you know, it it's it's not what you do, but but it's who you are.

unknown 5:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

It doesn't make you less valid if you're just thinking about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Right, right. So often, like when we think about ADHD and autistic brains, like we like to hold on to a thought, you know, and especially if you haven't then acted on that thought, like sometimes it kind of gets stuck in there. And so it makes sense, especially if you're having a lot of fun thinking about it and you're just having a lot of thoughts about it over and over. Um, you know, that strikes me as something that your brain is really caught up on. Um and and you haven't had a chance to do it yet. And so it makes a lot of sense that there's kind of this like, oh, okay. So now I have to figure out because I don't have an opportunity to try it, then you know, it can feel less valid because we are a society so much of doing. But especially for Audie HD brains, there's a a big piece of thinking that actually is very um fulfilling for us. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

And sometimes that's also in regards to like the more you think about it, the more you can kind of plan how it might go and envision yourself in the scenarios, which could make it easier when you get the opportunity to act on those things.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Hopefully that answers that one. You're according to us, you are welcome to call yourself kinky.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Exactly. Um, the next question says, Hello, aces. I am a 45-year-old late diagnosis autistic woman who has been married for 10 years this August. I need help knowing how to tell my husband that I want us to be more adventurous between the sheets. How do I do this? I have never asked for anything of the sort and never complained about our romps in the bedroom. Thank you for any suggestions.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

I guess it would it would really help if I had some idea of what it was that this person was interested in uh trying with with a partner.

unknown 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

Can maybe we could do a thought experiment and say, you know, uh bondage is one of the more common fantasies folks have. So maybe this is someone who would want to be tied up, and then maybe we can do a thought experiment. Maybe this is somebody who wants to get into some knife play. Kind of different l uh stigmas around each of those.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Right, right, exactly. Yeah. I I was also thinking, too, there must be uh movies that that they could watch, basically educational movies, you know, uh around kink. And I I wish that I had some suggestions. You know, I'm thinking about some people in in the kink community who are considered uh pillars of the kink community. One person who I think about is uh Midori, you know, who works a lot with rope, you know, which is something that I have to admit that I really, really like.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

You know.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah. Yeah. But um, you know, I think uh, you know, watching people uh engaging in this kind of activity, you know, I think it could be really helpful. Of course, um you know, your partner would would have to be open to it.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Yeah. So maybe like broaching the the subject by, hey, I saw this interesting thing, and here's an educational video by Midori, because Midori does a lot of training. Right, right. Yeah. That could be one way, yeah. That's true. When you said movies, I thought you were gonna go the like, oh, watch a film that involves some of the elements of what you'd like to do. You know, like sadly most of most of the kink movies are like the scandalized versions and are not actually uh as ethical as would be seen by like actual kink practitioners.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

But I mean, you know, they're not necessarily ethical or or accurate. Yeah, especially accurate.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah, and I think especially like Cade was talking about earlier with the um like the difference between, oh, I may be interested in some rope bondage or you know, something like that versus I'm interested in knife play or even maybe like puppy play or pet play, something like that, that's a little bit more stigmatized or a little bit more, you know, all these things, you're more likely to find some of those educational pieces in the first scenario than the second one. And that that's hard because I think that um one of the things that stops people from engaging their loved one in like this is what I'd like us, I'd like to consider for us. I'd like to open this conversation is that stigma piece. Self-stigma and worry about rejection or shame or things like that can stop people in their tracks a lot of time, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yes, unfortunately. When when we talk about, you know, bringing it up uh, you know, I gradually, um you know, maybe bringing up something that you're specifically interested in and and then asking what what do you think about this or or how do you feel about this? Or is is this something you've thought about?

SPEAKER_00 10:20

I also wonder if your partner knows that you're autistic and knows what some of the um experiences of that are. I've actually seen a lot of partners be much more open to hearing things when they're like autistic affirming. Um, if it's like, hey, I have fallen down a special interest rabbit hole of this thing. Can I just info dump at you about it? Kind of neutrally, and less so about like, hey, I'm trying to come here and tell you that I would like you to meet me in this middle ground, and more so like, hey, I have completely neutrally found this thing. And then that can evolve into a conversation around like, yeah, well, part of what's really interesting to me about this is thinking about myself in a circumstance like this. Have you ever thought about yourself in a circumstance? And it kind of opens the doors without pressure.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yes, yes, yes, and I I really, really like the idea of referring to it as a special interest because you know, basically that's what it is, you know, that's what it sounds like it is, you know, from from what the person wrote, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah, yeah. And that sensory piece too. Like Caden and I have a sensation to kink flowchart to help folks understand, like if I enjoy this sensation, then I might enjoy this kink. Um, because they're very intertwined, right? And so even if it's like, hey, I've realized that you know how you how you give me deep pressure hugs when I'm overwhelmed, I've realized that I actually would like that even when I'm not overwhelmed and in just a play way. You know, what would that look like? Is it wearing some spandex? Is it um again bondage, like those types of things that give deep pressure, but bringing it in through an avenue that y'all are already used to?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yes, yes, yes. And in fact, that's a a huge reason why I I love being tied up so much, you know, big because it it gives that pressure.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Yeah, and I find if you look at most kinks, there is that sensory undercurrent, whether that's getting more of a sensation or less, and that can be a great way to bring it up. But you know, this question asker also wrote, um, I've never asked for anything of the sort and never complained about our romps in the bedroom. I am curious to know, do you all talk about what you do in the bedroom, or is that even going to be a brand new conversation?

SPEAKER_00 12:37

And even this internal framing of it as like complaining, right? That like asking for something new or being interested in something new isn't necessarily complaining about what you already have. You might really enjoy what you already have. Um might not. But that there's like it's additive, not subtractive.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Hmm. That's that's a really good way to look at it. Yeah. Yeah. And I I don't get the idea that that the person uh is not satisfied with their sex life.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

No.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yeah. I mean, so so much of the time, I I guess in the vanilla world, you know, if if uh somebody's bored with their their sex life, you know, they uh trying to bring something in to uh you know spice up quote unquote their relationship. You know.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

And in a lot of situations, it could involve bringing in another person, which um, you know, the other partner usually is not for.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a fair point too, that perhaps this kink involves other people coming in, which might be a very different conversation than you know, simply adding uh a toy or device or rope or predicament. Yeah, or a certain position uh to bring in a whole nother human being or multiple could be a bigger conversation for sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Yes, definitely. Which I think is also where, Gloria, your specialty around like consent conversations, right? Like, because this does this is a thing that I hear a lot when I work with folks who are exploring Kink for the first time or um things like that, even sometimes like queerness and things, it'll be this idea of like, okay, but like that's not what my partner signed up for originally. And it's like, how do you start to burge these conversations with being respectful to the consent of all parties, but also recognizing that like you are trying to ask for that now, and so that's what's happening.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yes, yes, exactly. Yes, uh, you know, just and and I I don't want to say putting your partner's wishes above yours, but you know, d definitely respecting your partner's wishes and and and not just you know coming to them and all of a sudden saying, well, like there there was something that I saw, you know, in one of the uh polyamory related uh groups on Facebook. And the this is actually something that I see pretty frequently, is that um you know some somebody's husband will will come home and you know they'll say, Well, you know, I did some thinking and I I really decided that I want us to have a polyamorous relationship. Oof. And it's like the the wife has no say in the matter, and I've seen that happen over and over again. You know, which is awful and and that really has nothing to do with polyamory. I mean, it's it's really all about what the the husband wants.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

How do you interrupt that urge, right, to kind of come in and and like because we want to self-advocate, right? And say, like, hey, I'd be really interested in this, and we don't want to step over someone else's like needs or interests or things like that. How would you interrupt that kind of flow?

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Um you mean like if if if somebody said that they were were interested in in opening up their relationship or interested in, you know, uh trying some something kinky. Um uh I would would just go back to what we were saying earlier, you know, about you know, bringing up the conversation and uh you know saying that this is something that that I'm interested in. And I was wondering how you felt about this. And it it shows that you value your partner. And you're not just coming in and telling them this is how things are going to be, you know, this is this is how you know the relationship is going to go.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Yeah, I'm hearing like uh I statements in there, right? Like I am interested in this instead of we are going to be doing this.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Right, right, yeah, yeah. That that's a a huge difference, you know. Big because with the the second example, you know, with the we are going to do this, you know, you're basically you're making decisions for your partner.

unknown 17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Which is which is not good. I mean, it it's the total opposite of consent.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Yeah. And the other thing to keep in mind for anyone listening who would like to bring up kink to their partner or partners, you might have been fantasizing about this for months or years. This might be the first time your partner has even heard the words you're about to say or thought of that concept.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

So giving them some time to warm up to it and knowing that even if their first response is like, whoa, what? Or oh no, that give them some time to process and to come back and be like, hey, sorry, I was weird about it. I've had some time to look into it, and then give a more informed uh stance on where they're at, you know? Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

And definitely don't try to convince your partner. Yeah, because that especially never works.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Which I think can also happen, like that going into convince mode can happen from the feeling of rejection, right? Like I know for me, um, and I have a lot of like RSD, um, I've got borderline personality disorder as well. And so like there's a lot of like reaction to the rejection feeling that happens for me. And so there's this like, well, you're saying, like, oh, I didn't know you were interested in that. And I take that as you hate me and think I'm a disgusting freak. And so my nervous system is like, no, no, no, like, but you just haven't tried it yet. And I think you'd really like, and that convincing comes out of, please don't see me as wrong. And so there's that like pre-planning that I like to do when I'm about to ask for something vulnerably or things like that. That's very like, okay, I'm gonna ask it. And then my plan is like kind of ask it and find a way to leave the room, right? Or even I'll even sometimes tell the person I'm talking to, like, hey, I'm gonna ask you this thing and then I'm gonna shut my phone off. Um, and like, so say whatever you want. I would like your thoughts. I would like you to take as much time or as little time as you need, but I need to like say it and run a little bit so that whatever happens, I'm not triggered and then you know, falling down that rabbit hole. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Yeah, that's a good tip for folks who might need a little distance between being that vulnerable and hearing the especially initial responses.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah, because unfortunately, oh good. I was just gonna say, unfortunately, like with kink being so taboo, like there are unfortunately a lot of stigmas that have nothing to do with you and might not even have anything to do with your partner's like real actual feelings. But that like immediate society thought of this is unacceptable, right? Can come through, and then it's like, ah.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

On the flip side, you also might have a partner who goes, I'm so glad you've brought it up. I didn't want to rock the boat, we didn't marry ten great years for a month too.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, or maybe you meet with different kinks. You like I I want this one and and you want that one, and now we're all right. I'll I'll try yours if you try mine. Let's go. Right, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

It also really helps too, you know, if you live in a a a city or town uh where there's a a thriving kink community. Yeah, you know, because then the two of you can you know go to some of their events and I know with a lot of the kink events it at least in Seattle where I live, and um you know, and some some of the conferences uh that that I've gone to, you know, have had play parties. And with a lot of these play parties, you know, you're you're not required to play. You know, I mean you can you know b basically sit and watch. Now you know, you don't want to be, you know, uh uh standing so close to the somebody who's playing, you know. Uh you know, because that really gets creepy, but you know, just be far enough away that you can see what's going on and you know basically observe, you know.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Yeah, yeah, like a casual observer, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yeah, that's the other part, right? It's like especially it sounds like you're maybe in the beginning parts, though. I don't know how far into kink you've explored, but remembering too that there's also like munches and there's there's events that are not kinky in any way. Like everyone has all of their clothes on, they're not even dressed. So like a lot of um kink spaces or things will have dress codes that are like either you come in kink gear or you come wearing like all black or something that denotes I'm intentionally here and I'm not just a random off the street who's trying to get into this cool kinky party, right? Right. Um but munches are not like that, they're more like come in your street clothes. We're just like the ones that are local to me will often like meet at a local bar or restaurant, and then everyone is just kind of sitting around and like talking to each other, and it's very get to know you type of thing without any. Intention of getting to know you to play with you or getting to know you for this. It's just we are a community, and so we're gonna have community events that are accessible to all types of people who might be interested in being in community.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Right. Absolutely. In fact, uh a lot of these munches, you know, like it especially you know the the ones that are advertised on on FedLife, you know, they'll specifically say, uh, you know, this is a vanilla space, and so you know, uh don't wear any uh kink attire, you know. Plus with with with it being a public space, I mean, you know, there are children, you know, and but people of all ages and and but basically you know, people who didn't consent to see this.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

So yeah, yeah. Yeah. So those might also be if you're if you ask it and your partner shows an openness, that might be like a good dipping toes in the water. Yeah to get to get to know your local event, and that could help destigmatize things in general for both of you, really. Yes.

unknown 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

You also could go to some of the workshops in person. I know locally they I think they do once every couple months, like a pet play instructional night, and then the pets can like hang out and play together at the bar. Um and there's lots online too. You know, obviously Thrive is coming up, but that's only once a year. But the company who does that runs trainings all throughout the year, pragmatically kinking. Yes, and then Gloria, do you also run virtual ones throughout the year or yours mostly in person?

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Um actually most of mine are are virtual, you know, but uh you know, I'm doing more and more that are um in person now, you know, since since we're I mean, the the pandemic isn't necessarily gone, you know. But um but it it it's not nearly as dangerous as it was, you know, six years ago. You know. So um and and I I don't have anything scheduled at the moment, but uh yes, I'll d definitely let you know when I do.

unknown 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

And I know like there's a big one in Georgia, sex down south, um that happens in person as well. And so what we're saying is that like these kinds of groups stay intentionally um to the side and mindful of who uh knows about them and has access to them. But once you do, there are lots, there's plenty um of spaces.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yes, yes, oh absolutely, yes. I mean, it it's it's really you know like uh falling through a rabbit hole, you know, when when you you know start researching and and looking for these different resources, you know, you'll just keep you know finding more and more. You know, it's really really exciting, actually. I agree.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Yeah, I remember 10 10 or so, 10, 13 years ago when I was helping build a local pride organization, we were brainstorming who to network with, and we thought, well, if there's a kink community, that might be great, because you know, lots of kinky folks are the reason we have pride.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

And I was like, I don't know if we have that here, and sure enough, uh they would rent out every month um the back room at a Chinese food restaurant, and then the back room at like a pizza place, and they were just there the whole time, and I had no clue. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

I know some folks who run some of the the local ones here, and they do like two big events um a year um in my area, and so like it that's the thing is like they're there, it takes some time to find them, and it might be worth if you have real genuine concern around like I don't think my partner will be open to this in some way, it might be worth you going on your own for a little while to build up some community. Um, because those are also going to be people who have had that experience of talking to a partner about you know who who might not have been king to start with, or you know, all of these things, those are also going to be people who will help you to really feel confident in yourself. And I find that like when you're asking your partner to support you in something that you are interested in, um, you know, confidence is never hurtful in that. Really, when you're asking anyone to support you in something that you're interested in, um that's true, having a confidence that like it is okay to ask for what I'm asking for, there is nothing wrong with me for asking for it can help again that rejection that I was talking about earlier to not spring up, even if they have kind of a different reaction than what you're hoping for. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

Awesome. Uh, we can hop over to Patreon next to record our guest bonus content. Uh the segment's called Hit Me Again, which should now be streaming on a private podcast stream for our paid members. We're gonna go over there to talk about what it's like to disclose being both autistic and kinky to new partners if you're out in the dating world, uh, as well as how to figure out which kink events are neurodivergent friendly.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

So it'll dovetail nicely. Thank you so much for joining us today here on Aces Up Your Sleeve. Please expect new episodes to continue being weekly on Tuesdays. You can find Gloria on Facebook or Instagram at Gloria Jackson Nefertd, all one word, or check out her Linktree at linktr dot e. It's the way that Linktree usually is, slash Gloria J N. We'll post links in the show notes as well, and on our socials, it will always be tagged as well there. You can also find Kate at CryptedLearns and me at Radical Insights Consulting on Facebook or Instagram at a dot com and you'll get our websites. Follow the podcast on Facebook or Instagram at AcesUp Your Sleeve Pod so you can interact with us and see when new episodes release. If you have any questions for us, visit neurokink.org slash a uys and send them our way. We're gonna jump over to Patreon now to record hit me again, our exclusive guest bonus content. It's over at patreon.com slash aces up your sleeve podcast, but you can also listen to it wherever you stream once you join our Patreon. It's on its own private podcast stream now. We're very fancy. Uh we hope to see you over there.