Aces Up Your Sleeve

How PDA & BPD Impact Romantic Relationships

• Aces Up Your Sleeve • Season 2 • Episode 10

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In this episode, we’re examining how PDA & BPD can impact romantic relationships. If you’re wondering how to avoid triggers, feel loved, and build connection with your partner, this episode is for you!

We're answering these listener questions:

  • I need a lot of alone time to regulate my nervous system, but my partner takes it personally and thinks I don't love them. I just sit around and do nothing so its not like I’m having fun without her. The worse part is I think like that too when she’s playing star dew valley for hours even though I know it’s not that. How do I get my space, have time for my special interests and decompress without making her feel abandoned or unwanted? I do like time with her but a guys got a job and bills to pay so I have to use energy at work and try to do overtime for extra cash. If it changes your guys answer, she is ADHD BPD and I am autistic PDA.
  • I’m 26 and got told I’m borderline last year by a therapist. I think I have rejection sensitivity and maybe even PDA. I’ve been with my boyfriend for about two years and I know we need to talk about our relationship issues, but the moment my partner says 'we need to talk' my brain completely shuts down and I want to run away and hide, or just dump them even though stuff is normally really good. How can we handle our issues without triggering me to run away or shutdown? He thinks I’m projecting my trauma on him because my ex was actually abusive but I don’t think of him as my ex at all.

Show Notes:

To ask us questions, fill out the form at www.neurokink.org/auys

Find more content on Patreon (18+): www.patreon.com/AcesUpYourSleevePodcast

Sabrina at www.radicalingingishtsconsulting.com or @radicalinsightsconsulting on social media (FB, IG)

Kade at www.cryptidlearns.com or @cryptidlearns on social media (FB, IG)


SPEAKER_00

This is the Aces Up Your Sleeve podcast, and we're the Aces Up Your Sleeve in relationships, from romantic to workplace, parental to platonic, your relationship with yourself, and everything in between. Let us, to autistic aspect kinky therapists, be your secret weapon in neurodivergent life.

SPEAKER_02

And here's your disclaimer: this is not therapy or therapeutic advice, and we're not on the clock. What you'll hear are our thoughts on different topics, what we might do in your shoes, and how we've supported others through similar situations.

SPEAKER_01

I'm your host, Sabrina.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm your other host, Cade.

SPEAKER_01

And we are excited to uh be talking about something a little bit different for this podcast today. I mean, still relationships, it's still us. I'm really excited today.

SPEAKER_00

Still applicable to autistic listeners for sure, because you're not excluded in the topics we're gonna cover. But if you caught the title, we're talking borderline personality disorder, pathological demand avoidance, or persistent drive for autonomy, and relationships.

SPEAKER_01

Woo-hoo! That's gonna be awesome. Uh just a quick reminder on the online 18 plus mental health and BDSM event called Thrive happens this weekend as you're listening to this this weekend. This episode is a little bit in honor um of uh my upcoming Cluster B panel on Sunday, May 31st at 1.15 at Thrive. Um 1.15 Pacific time.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Pacific time. Um we'll also be talking about sensory joy for autistic folks, had a different presentation the day before. Link in the show notes for more info on all of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Uh we'll just jump right in. I need a lot of alone time to regulate my nervous system, but my partner takes it personally and thinks I don't love them. I just sit around and do nothing, so it's not like I'm having fun without her. The worst part is I think like that too when she's playing Stardew Valley for hours, even though I know it's not that. How do I get my space, have time for my special interests, and decompress without making her feel abandoned or unwanted? I do like time with her, but a guy's got a job and bills to pay, so I have to use energy at work and try to do overtime for extra cash. If it changes your guy's answer, she is ADHD BPD and I am autistic PDA. That's tough, because very valid needs to need time to recharge, very valid needs for her to need stardu time as well. I personally am not a PDAer or a BPDer, so my advice could maybe touch on the ADHD and autistic pieces and be a little trauma-informed, but I wonder what your thoughts are, Sabrina.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, with anything where it comes to like, okay, my partner is experiencing my behavior in XYZ way. I think it's important to start with validation and like recognizing like, oh, that is just my partner's experience. It doesn't actually mean that I'm doing anything wrong. It doesn't mean that they're doing anything wrong. It's how they're experiencing things. And we can be interested in wanting to change how that experience is happening. We can also recognize that there might be ways in which like they experience that and we can do some repair work afterwards or um you know have things that can be helpful in helping them feel less like that, recognizing that it might not ever not feel like that at all. Um, like I feel abandoned when my cat leaves my couch to go to my partner's couch.

SPEAKER_00

Ah, second choice human. Yeah, that's a serious offense.

SPEAKER_01

Come back over here. I am your mother. Oh my god. Um so we're certainly not looking at something that's is rational. We're looking at something that's emotional, and so we need to treat it like it's emotional.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

There can be like fun ways to to reinforce that, like, no, I do love you. And to not have to do that while you're needing the alone time. There could be uh some amount of like beforehand work or effort put forth so that when you do really need space, maybe that's hours of like sitting around doing nothing, just kind of thinking or not even thinking, just zoning out. If you and and her can come up with a plan beforehand, that could help at least alleviate it a little. She might still be like, I'm lonely and you don't love me, but the logic side of the brain would probably know that you do still love her.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I also think that there's like part of this where so because if you say the worst part is I think like that too when she's playing Study Valley for hours. So, like, A, you can recognize, like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like these thoughts don't have to make sense in the sense of they are factual and accurate to what's really happening and how I feel, but that they like are gonna come and they're um valid in the fact that like feelings come up whether we want them to or not. Um, and so it could even be helpful to for her to hear, like, oh, I know, I know like something of what you're feeling, I have felt that way too. And not because you want to change her playing started valley, but to help her see like, yeah, when you're playing started valley, are you just sitting there thinking about how much you hate me and want me to go away? No, I'm also not doing that thing. And kind of like Kate said, so one of the things that helped me most when I like was first really dealing with like not first dealing with it, but when I was first trying to like interrupt the um those feelings was a lot of like okay, I need to have something else to occupy my brain, especially with the ADHD. It's really nice because it's like, okay, what can I find that's going to be sensory stimulating enough that I won't notice that that person hasn't texted me back in like five hours.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, because maybe like you're at work all day and then you come home and you need your alone time, and she's been there doing Stardew all day, so she's like full up on Stardew and she's ready to hang out, has no other plans, can't wait to see you. And that hits emotionally a little bit rougher than if that weren't the case.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So, like, can she schedule a call with another friend during the same time that you come home and need some alone time? Um, can she um intentionally play starting with a friend? Um, is that something that like would count as alone time to you if you each if you are playing on the same starting farm from different rooms and not using any form of like um phone, like not talking to each other, but just like because you can you can play multiplayer on the same little farm?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and just do your own thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and just do your own thing, but like you're still kind of spending time together. Like, I don't know, would that be something? There's lots and lots of space in between here um that may be worthwhile that isn't just you don't get alone time, or she just sits there and suffers.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And is this also representative of not feeling very connected lately? Because I see you're like you're working a lot, you're paying a lot of bills, you're doing overtime. Is there some piece of in both of you that is feeling like a just a disconnect in general? So then when you do need alone time or if you need stardew time, it feels so much heavier because there's no reconnecting. You know, maybe looking at that too, and whether it is playing Stardew together, or if there's like a way to mindfully reconnect in whatever way that looks like for you two. It could be a date night, it could be a stay-at-home, like let's just do a puzzle together, or read a book together with silly voices, like whatever the thing is that makes you all bond and feel connected.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I think like there are also little asynchronous um things that you can do to send care and connection. Um, these are gonna look different for everyone, but it could be a text, which a lot of texting platforms are actually adding um pre-send, so you can schedule send, um, even within like text messaging. Um but you can um so like that's asynchronous. You could send her a little like love note email. Again, those are things that you can pre-send. So they come either while you're at work or while you're doing your downtime or whatever. Um, I actually am a fan, even if we live together, send mail, send snail mail. Um so like at some point write her a little love note and mail it to like your own address. Um, you could even maybe use a friend's return address or like, you know, whatever. Um but mail it. Leave it in a journal that you two share that stays in a common space that is for her to look over when she's feeling like abandoned and unwanted. Um, you know, these types of things that take a little bit of upfront effort and then are asynchronous and things that can come to her and support her when you're doing other things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, maybe write a little note, even if it's a sticky note and put it on or tape it to her like daily soda or snack or wherever you know she will go once a day or every other day, and then she can see that and know, oh, he's you know, been thinking about me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think in a lot of ways, it's about like not stigmatizing either one of you for having the needs that you have.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. I would also encourage uh both of you to look into what long-distance relationship couples do, because there are some certain apps where you like log in and you can leave little notes occasionally. Um, there was one my partner and I used to use, I don't know if it still exists or if it's rebranded or what, but you could like open the app at the same time and put your finger somewhere, and then the other person would see where that was on the screen and put their finger there, and then it would like light up and do a little vibrate. Yeah. So there's cute stuff out there. Um, and just because you live in the same house or visit each other often doesn't mean you couldn't do some long distance stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's even like lamps and at one point I feel like there was stuff. Yeah. Um that it might be worthwhile to look into. And also, you know, like some of this also might be looking at how much space are you needing and what are the contributing factors. It looks like you've already started doing that around like your job and um, you know, doing overtime and things like that. How actually necessary are those things that are driving up your need for more time? Um is it worth looking at that at all? And if you do, you could also then use that information to talk to her and say, again, not as like quote unquote an excuse, but as a like, hey, I just want to let you know, like, you're on my mind all the time, and this is what my day looks like.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so when I get home, I need some like reboot time. And so, you know, whatever I can do or say to help you remember that like I'm just in my reboot time and will be back and like a better partner when I'm back, I would like to offer that. Um if if it's really important, you know. I know lots of people are really strapped right now and trying to pay down debts or bills or build up a savings or literally just survive. Um, and so it might not be possible for me to not have all of like all that energy used at work. Um I also do wonder like is parallel play still like overstimulating or too much peopling? It might be, but it might not be. Um, if y'all can really actually stick to parallel playing. I struggle with parallel play because I will start making comments and like talking about a shower while yeah, like the book I'm reading or the game I'm playing, and like that's not as parallel play as some folks might enjoy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, a little more interactive. You know, I glanced at the question and the question asker did say that they're a PDA or so, you know, take all of our suggestions with a grain of salt. Uh use them more as like inspiration if if they can inspire you. Because I think what matters most about how you reconnect and how you engage with your partner is what feels good for you and sustainable for you. We might have just said a lot of things that you're like, yeah, I could do that for a day or two or a week or two, but there's no way like long term. Um figuring out what what's felt good for you in the past, like I'm not seeing in this question that this has been an always issue. What did it used to look like? Are there little things that you could do again if it was going well? Maybe there are some things you could come up with that we don't suggest, so it doesn't feel maybe as much pressure to do.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I know one thing that has worked for my brain that not take it or leave it. But uh what has been helpful for me with the like, oh, I could maybe keep that up for a day, and like I struggle with this a lot, and I talk to my therapist and my nutrition therapist a lot with this a lot, with like movement or um like I don't do dieting and like intentional weight loss, but like, oh like I'm hoping to get more X in my diet, whatever. Um Right, that I have that same kind of like oh I could never do this for long term, like this is not a thing I could eat. Like, okay, so then just like I'll just do it today.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And if I do it again tomorrow, then I do, and if I don't do it again tomorrow, then I don't. But I did it today.

SPEAKER_00

Um in a few weeks, yeah, you do it again.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly, exactly. And that's the thing, is like a lot of times I will circle back around to a thing. Um and so that's something that I sometimes will try to get through that like fine, that sounds like I could do it a time. Okay. Yeah. A time is more than no time.

SPEAKER_00

And, you know, it says she's uh an ADHD or and a BPDier. I wonder if maybe that would suit her okay if you only did something occasionally and it was kind of a surprise when it happened and when it didn't. She might appreciate that. The attachment side might appreciate more of a secure, like, here is uh but if you're trying to do different things consistently, then that attachment side, hopefully those needs would be met.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, I think that what I have usually found most helpful is just like distraction and whatever form that I can find of like rereading text messages that you know say, Hey, I love you, I'll see you soon, or um also the way that someone comes back from taking time. Like if you come back and you're like, Alright, hey, there's like hey, like I'm really excited to see you, like I've missed you, I'm like so glad that we get the rest of the night together. There's a pretty big difference to that in my nervous system, like it helps me to actually genuinely see oh that time was really helpful for you. Yeah, and like this is like this brings me a version of you that's exciting and fun versus like oh well when you come back and you're just as deflated.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm like, okay, so then come be deflated with me.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Right. Or if you know the alternative is you're coming home and being grumpy, angry, hostile, versus, uh, I'm tired, but at least we get to hang out on the couch now and watch something, that's that's still an improvement, you know. That's great.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Yeah. And so that may or may not be something, you know, depends a little on how that actually turns out, but uh like how you actually feel. But it is something that like I know helps me is the like, oh, I can see the like effects of this immediately.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Uh our next one is I'm 26 and got told I'm borderline last year by a therapist. I think I have rejection sensitivity and maybe even PDA. I've been with my boyfriend for about two years, and I know we need to talk about our relationship issues, but the moment my partner says we need to talk, my brain completely shuts down and I want to run away and hide, or just dump them, even though stuff is normally really good. How can we handle our issues without triggering me to run away or shut down? He thinks I'm projecting my trauma on him because my ex was actually abusive, but I don't think of him as my ex at all.

unknown

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think of you like my ex meaning like I don't think of my current partner as my ex Uh I'm projecting my trauma on him be he thinks I'm projecting my trauma on him because my ex was actually abusive, but I don't think of him as my ex. Maybe they mean like my ex at all.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, okay. That's that's what I was thinking, but I just wanted to make sure it was clear.

SPEAKER_00

I think yeah, I think partner is saying, you're projecting onto me, I'm not like your ex, and this person's like, I'm not projecting, and I don't think you're like my ex. That's how I'm taking it. And you know, please write back in if we're off.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean I would start with like if that particular phrasing is triggering, find it down phrasing. I don't know, man. I I see all the time people like, well, every time I say this, then like my partner gets triggered this way, or every time that they say this, okay, is there a a different way to say the thing? Like, instead of we need to talk, can it be like, hey, like, I'd love to have a conversation later about this topic?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Hey, I want to talk soon about bills.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You might still have some of that feeling, but at least you know it's not like I want to talk about dumping you.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Or even maybe the partner can wait until you are in a space to chat and you know, have a seat and be like, hey, I was just wondering about the bills around da da. Can we talk about that? And then it gives you the chance in the moment to be like, no, or yeah, I guess, what's going on? And instead of the forewarning, it's like, let's just gently ease in because it's no big deal, it's just a a conversation.

SPEAKER_01

A thing that works well in my house and that um has worked well in the houses of folks that I know, uh, is setting a bog standard time to talk regardless. So, like we've made it a little specific in my house. So, like every other Sunday, my partner and I will try to have like just sit down, pull up our bill spreadsheet, and talk a little bit about money, even if neither one of us really has anything. It's just to kind of neutralize those conversations within our like relationship. Um but there have also been times when we'll like, okay, so we're going into a busy time, we're going into a stressful time, we're about to move, we're about to, whatever, right? We will set, okay, Wednesday nights, we're gonna set aside an hour, we're gonna sit on the porch, and we're just gonna whatever needs to be said or talked about or like anything will happen then. And that really takes a lot of the pressure off of each one of us, because like no one has to call a meeting, no one has to be called to a meeting. Um it doesn't have to be about anything bad. Sometimes it's really good news, sometimes it's but it's just a like sacred space that we set aside to discuss these things um that we found really helps with a lot of like my rejection stuff, with a lot of like their rejection and anxiety stuff, um and also a lot of the anticipation that comes with like, hey, can we talk about this later?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, that way your nervous system already expects, okay, weekly or every other week, around this day in time, we'll be talking about things, and there may not be anything big, but sometimes there might be. So what do we need to do that day to prepare for that? Or afterwards, you know, do I need to carve out time to do XYZ self-care stuff?

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah, so I do think that like if possible, um, if you can identify what the phrases are around like we need to talk, or I have something to tell you, or um whatever the phrases are that are like most challenging to you, um it is worthwhile to figure those out and see if you can find replacements um, you know, that feel more neutral, um, that maybe give you more context. I hate a do you have time for a quick call? That A is not gonna happen in the very second that I say yes. Like, once I've said yes, my anxious timer has started.

SPEAKER_00

Call me.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Like, and and this happened uh uh between us the other day where you were like, Oh, do you wanna like hop on a thing right now? I was like, Yeah. And then I called you six times.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I was like, Do you want to work on this thing? And you said yeah, and I didn't know if that meant like call, zoom, just type, or yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_01

But I was just like, brain stacked now right now. Um and so I think that like figuring out what your phrases are that's gonna feel better, and if if they can start using that, also neutralizing the conversation. So, like, if there's a way for them to use that phrase for all types of conversations and not just maybe more complex, heavy relationship ones. So, like, hey, do you have a quick phrase? Do you can you call real quick?

SPEAKER_00

In my house, I'll just funny story to tell you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like so either adding that on, but also like in my house like, can I call you real quick or are you busy is usually a like There is something time sensitive, but it's usually pretty like neutrally time sensitive. Because we use it for all sorts of things. Sometimes it's um, what do you want for dinner? Sometimes it's this building get paid. Sometimes it's um the cat did the funniest thing. Can I tell you about it? Like there's lots and lots and lots of things that we use that particular phrase for. So it's pretty neutralized in my system because we use it and there's it's not a consistently uh heavy conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's super smart, kind of taking the emotional charge back out of it.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. Um, which takes some doing, um, and takes some like also being able to communicate back like is everything okay? This has me worried, what's going on? Um, and being able to have that then like actually answer the question, right? So like um part of this question is he thinks I'm projecting my trauma on him. I think when people are like, oh, you're projecting your trauma, I think it's more about like, no, I'm experiencing my trauma. And you're a person who's with me while I'm experiencing that trauma, and my body is responding to the trauma. I'm not saying that you are the one who's done this, and it's helpful to remember that it's not them. But also that like your body is the one that experienced both that and now this and is connecting them. And so, like, I don't know that you're projecting, I think that your body is responding, and I don't know that you have control over that in any functional way, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00

And we don't have the context to know if if the way you respond now is actually the way you responded before your relationship with the ex that you're calling uh that was abusive, maybe this is just how your nervous system works. Maybe this is actually something that started in childhood or teen years. We we don't have the context. And it doesn't mean that if you just stop thinking about trauma, you're gonna stop feeling like running away. Like that also doesn't work. So if he thinks by saying, like, well, you're just projecting I'm not your ex, that you're just magically gonna be like, Oh, you're right. I no longer feel threatened at the thought of us having a conversation about some difficult things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, I feel like a lot of times when people are like, Oh, like you're projecting your trauma onto me, or like you have to remember that I'm not your this, that, and the third, it's like, okay, but you have to remember that my body doesn't know that. And it's not because you're a bad person or like I can't tell that you're whatever. It's that like my body is not that's not how bodies work.

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_00

And then this question, yeah, I hear this person saying, like, how can we figure this out? Because I'd like to be able to talk about our stuff, not saying, you know, I'm just always gonna run away because this is just like da-da-da-da-da. You're open to making some change in movement, and I hope he acknowledges that too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I'll also say, um, like, whatever you find regulatory, so like um fidgets or um soft, like I'm I'm a big soft fan, but you could also enjoy rough or whatever sensory things that like are helpful to you having access to those. And then the number one thing that I actually see is most helpful for like talking about hard shit is like reducing urgent. You don't have to finish the whole conversation immediately, you don't have to like um get it all done within a one-hour conversation. You can take breaks, you can like take a walk without it being you running away, you can meet a timeout, you can like stop and pick the conversation up a different day. There are billions of options of things to do once you reduce the urgency out of the conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And finally, it wouldn't be a therapist podcast if I didn't say if this is very challenging, which it might be. I mean, you know, those are tough conversations, and if you've experienced trauma and you've experienced maybe gaslighting in the past, you experienced abuse in the past, it might be very hard to change this just between the two of you. Nothing wrong with going to a relationship counselor, nothing wrong with getting that little extra bit of support, especially during these hard conversations. They should have skills in how to help people regulate and communicate and take breaks as needed and come back as needed. That should be within their wheelhouse if they are good at what they do, um, which can make it easier to have those successful conversations or ones that don't feel as intimidating or scary as stressful as they do now. And that can that pattern can kind of persist outside of those uh therapy sessions.

SPEAKER_01

And to that point, you know, 26 men got told uh I'm borderline last year by a therapist. I don't know if this was your therapist, I don't know if this is a therapist that you trust, I don't know if this is someone that you're still seeing, I don't know if you agreed or disagreed. Um, I do think that like making sure that if you're going to work with a therapist, that they have a lot of knowledge about attachment, they have a lot of knowledge about biosocial theory and the idea that like an invalidating social environment is actually a big part of why people have trouble regulating emotions. Um therapist who understands that a regulated emotion is not a calm emotion, and in fact it's an emotion that is fitting the needs of the current situation. Um, and so it's not regulated to be calm at a soccer pitch, um, just like it's not regulated to be calm when someone is hurting you or abusing you intentionally with knowledge that they're doing so, right? And so, like that there's a lot of different ways that um, you know, therapists are people and make mistakes or do you harm or whatever. Um, and that like continuing to work to find a really decent therapist, especially uh one who has destigmatized disorderline and who um is understanding even if you don't uh agree with that diagnosis because you've been told that um you're exhibiting something similar to that, that there are unfortunately a lot of therapists who are super stigmatized about BPD still. Um and so even if that is not like your experience, that you want to find someone who would have compassion if it were. Does that make sense? Yeah. Um and that can be really helpful.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we are gonna go record our bonus content for our Patreon patrons now. Hopefully that the suggestions, that advice was helpful. Um, for the bonus content, I think we're gonna talk more about being in relationships. So dating, friends, family relationships with PDAers and BPDers. We'll share a little personal insight as to how we accommodate each other, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um, we are looking forward to it. Thank you so much for listening. We have new episodes weekly on Tuesdays. You can find Kate at Cryptid Learns and me at Radical Insight Consulting on Facebook, Instagram, Cata.com at the end or our website. Follow the podcast on Facebook or Instagram at AssesUpYourSleeve Pod so you can interact with us and see when new episodes release. Also, if you're a therapist who wants to learn more about BPD, specifically BPD stigma and teens, and why um, you know, we don't really diagnose teens and what we can do to support those clients. I have a two-hour training over at neuropeble.com that's got MBCCCE hours attached to it that you can pick up. It's on demand and you know, it's a it's a dab-a-doo time. Um, so you can definitely check that out as well. If you have questions for us, visit neurotink.org slash AUIS and send it our way. We're gonna jump over to Patreon and record up in the anti or exclusive bonus content over at patreon.com slash races up your sleep podcast. So you can also listen to it wherever you stream once you join our Patreon. It's got its own private podcast stream now, and so we hope to see you over there. Bye bye.

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Kade

Co-host
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Sabrina

Co-host