Aces Up Your Sleeve
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Aces Up Your Sleeve
How to Help Autistic & ADHD Kids with Executive Functioning Skills with Bobbi-Jo Molokken
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On this week’s episode, we’re joined by the amazing Bobbi-Jo Molokken! As most ADHD and Autistic parents of ADHD and Autistic kids know things can get out of hand quickly. You feel all the pressure to parent well and meet your kids needs while preparing them for the “real world” and yet it feels like sand through your fingers trying to keep it all going. What most parents don’t know is how the F do I even help my ADHD or Autistic kid with executive functioning. Bobbi-Jo is here to help, as an ADHD mom of two ADHD kids AND a licensed therapist and ADHD coach, Bobbi-Jo can help from all angles! Answering questions about reasonable expectations, how to support effectively, and on the bonus episode her own experience with executive functioning, you don’t want to miss this one!
Show notes:
Embrace the Muchness (Bobbi-Jo Molokken’s coaching business): https://www.embracethemuchness.com/
Compassionate Curiosity Counseling (Bobbi-Jo Molokken’s therapy practice): www.compassionatecuriositycounseling.com
Bobbi-Jo on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/embracethemuchness
Bobbi-Jo’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/embracethemuchness
Bobbi-Jo’s ADHD resource list: www.adhdresourcelibrary.com
What the EF? Executive Functioning Series by Bobbi-Jo: https://www.embracethemuchness.com/blog/tag/What+the+EF%3F
Inner Equilibrium Audit by Bobbi-Jo: https://www.embracethemuchness.com/digital-downloads
To ask us questions, fill out the form at www.neurokink.org/auys
Find more content on Patreon (18+): www.patreon.com/AcesUpYourSleevePodcast
Sabrina at www.radicalingingishtsconsulting.com or @radicalinsightsconsulting on social media (FB, IG)
Kade at www.cryptidlearns.com or @cryptidlearns on social media (FB, IG)
This is the Aces Up Your Sleeve podcast, and we're the Aces Up Your Sleeve in relationships, from romantic to workplace, parental to platonic, your relationship with yourself and everything in between. Let us, two autistic aspect kinky therapists, be your secret weapon in neurodivergent life.
SPEAKER_00This is your disclaimer. This is not therapy or therapeutic advice, and we are not on the clock. This is for entertainment purposes only. This is not a replacement for therapy. What you'll hear are our thoughts on different topics, what we might do in the situation, and how we've supported others through similar things. And we are here to talk all things neurodivergence and relationships and all kinds of kind of fun stuff. Um, and today we've got a lovely guest here with us to talk about executive functioning. Bobby Joe Muloken. I just realized I don't actually know if I've ever said your last name out loud. Um, L-I-S-W, C C T P is a psychotherapist and ADHD coach based in Iowa. Diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and a parent of ADHD children, she brings both a personal and professional insight into her work. She is passionate about providing neurodiversity affirming education and resources that empower individuals and professionals to better understand and support ADHD. She's the founder of Embrace the Muchness LLC, where she offers ADHD coaching, professional development training, clinical consultation, and digital resources designed for neurodivergent individuals and those who support them. Some of those resources are extremely badass. That's not in the copy. I'm just saying that. She also owns Compassionate Curiosity Counseling, where she provides individual psychotherapy services specializing in adult ADHD and relational trauma. Welcome! Hi. We're so excited that you're here. Bobby Joe is also a like personal friend of Kate and I. Um, so it's just fun to get to talk to a friend.
SPEAKER_02Instead of just listening to you, um I sometimes uh will joke that like you know, if I'm not hanging out with you, it can just like listen to you on your podcast and kind of feel like I'm hanging out.
SPEAKER_00The exact same. We literally just turn the camera on and then start talking like we were already.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Yes. And now our mutual friends can feel like they're hanging out with all three of us for this episode. Exactly. Jabby cool. Bobby Joe, how do you say your last name? Just to make sure that we get it correct.
SPEAKER_02Uh it is Mollikan.
SPEAKER_01Molliken. I wondered. I wondered.
SPEAKER_02It's Norwegian. Fair. Cool. And it's my husband's last name. There's a fun little story about that, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm sure we'll get that fun little story at some point. But I apologize for fucking up your name. Um and we'll do better moving to the code.
SPEAKER_02We're pretty used to it. Um when we we've had a lot of activities for our kid who's now our oldest is now in seventh grade, so like all the programs, right? And so we're like anytime both her first and her last name, like both of them being together, is like astonishing with their both spelled correctly. And then if somebody has to announce it and they even get like, you know, part of it right, we're like counted as a win. So it's so to say the bar is pretty low as far as I expect to do.
SPEAKER_00Um I'm so flexible that way.
SPEAKER_01Well, for our first question, just kind of broadly to introduce listeners to this concept, if they're not already sure, uh, how do you define executive functioning?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think about executive functioning as kind of the it is the skills to execute a task. And so um I like to think about it like uh the part of your brain that is like the executive of a business. So it is the skills that you use if you are running a business to set goals and prioritize and monitor progress and make sure that you're making efficient use of your time and those kind of things. Um, but specifically, the executive functioning skills that I talk about most are kind of working memory, time management, organization planning, prioritization, kind of self-monitoring or metacognition is another term that's used a lot there too. Um and I'm probably forgetting a couple others off the top of my head here that also exist. Emotional control is another one, but those are all kind of the ones that are defined. Um, and what I tend to think about at least as a very starting point for that.
SPEAKER_00Would you classify? I was just talking about this today, and I don't know if you'd classify it as an executive function or something else. The kind of like ADHD urge to shut down at like, oh, that's too much information, that's too hard. Like the I do that with like math, for example. I just I don't even try. Does that count as one, too?
SPEAKER_02I think we'd have to break down of like exactly what is it that's happening in behind that, like, because there could be different reasons that that's happening. I think some of that might get into like information processing pieces, which technically, like I would say I don't think that they necessarily like that processing piece isn't necessarily considered an executive function, but it is tied in because you have to understand information and process it to be able to then use it to plan and execute tasks. And so um, that's always an interesting thing to me is that like processing isn't talked about so much when you look just at like executive functioning resources.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, because some might argue, oh, it kind of counts as uh task initiation, which is one of those executive functioning skills. But you're right, it really depends what's under it. Is it the initiation, or is there something else happening before we can even get to that being possible or not possible?
SPEAKER_02Or I think if you say, like, or we could tie it back into if the shutdown is happening and we look at it through the emotional control kind of lens, then it is about your, you know, your ability to how much can you kind of tolerate and stay focused on the task, right? Um, at hand, which is where that comes in. And I already have feelings about like I don't love emotion regulation being listed as kind of part of the executive functions, but like it is if we're looking at it just through the lens of like the capacity to complete and carry out tasks, right? Um, but I kind of like to think about them almost like side by side and working hand in hand versus it just being a category within the larger executive functioning, but that's kind of my own how my brain starts to make sense of the information.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I bet we could do a whole additional episode about what is emotional regulation, emotional control, how much can we really control our emotions? Uh I mean it's yeah, a pretty good idea.
SPEAKER_00My personal perspective is kind of zero. Like, I don't think we control anything, but I think that we can respond to them. But like you said, that would be a whole other episode.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I could go down lots of gridbox. And I'm also feeling myself pulled to like just name something as we're starting, because I always feel like this is important, is when we talk about executive functioning, of like how much that our society places emphasis on that, and how much of that comes from capitalism and all the other isms, but specifically capitalism, in that these particular skills are so highly valued when you live in a culture that time is money, right? And so then the more efficient you can do things, the ability to stay focused, the ability to initiate tasks on demand, all of those things are highly valued when time is money and everybody's trying to make the most money possible. And I like to make sure that people understand that like there are all these other different types of skills. There are doing skills, and that's a lot of what the executive functioning ones are, and then there are being skills, which are things like presence and storytelling and caretaking and art and all these other things that like are more about the experience of being human that have a lot, a lot of value, um, but they're a lot harder to quantify. So I like to always kick off any conversations about executive functioning by like just naming that because I think so many people walk away when they do struggle with executive functioning skills of then internalizing that and feeling bad. Um, because again, society, these are the things that they value, and we do have all these different skills that also are valuable, but just may not be seen and highlighted as much in our society as they should be.
SPEAKER_00It almost actually follows the same like executive metaphor, right? We somehow value these executives, quote unquote, more than anyone else in the company, even though they're certainly not the only ones like doing work.
SPEAKER_02And a lot of times they aren't the ones actually doing the work, right? They are like the executives are managing, but they're not actually doing. Um, and so yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great reminder that humans' worth is not actually tied directly to executive functioning and productivity and shouldn't be, but in our society right now, this is highly valued, and I think as we go through the questions, listeners, uh, and we will notice that that productivity is really in here and and tied to value, so hopefully we can speak to that a little as we go through these. Well our first one. Hello, autistic ADHD mom of three here. My husband and I are at our wits' end because we have a neurodivergent house and it's chaos. My kids are three, ten, and twelve, and of course we don't expect the youngest to do any chores but help pick up toys, but every room feels like a tornado hit, and outside is a mess as well. My husband works full-time and I work full-time from home, so he thinks I'll have time to do chores on my lunch break, but that is my me time and I don't have the energy to do chores. He was never taught to clean, so I can't ask him to do much but run errands. My ten and twelve year old act like they don't understand instructions, and recently their pediatrician suggests that they may have executive function issues. I turned to Dr. Google, but I don't understand how to help them with this while my own world is chaos and I barely executively function. What should I be doing? What can my husband do to help? I wish we were rich to afford a cleaner landscaper and nanny. Thank you for any ideas to get this house in order.
SPEAKER_00I also wish that everyone were rich to afford those things.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that's one of these are one of those kind of questions that like I could not answer with a really short like the the question at the end is like, what do I do to get my house clean, right? And there's so many layers to kind of pull back there. I work a lot with parents of ADHDers, autistic folks. And so some of it is just kind of looking at the big picture of where do we have the best chance to make impact? And while those adults may not have greatly developed executive functioning skills, they have the best chance because their brain is the one that is more fully developed, right? Um, and so I tend to try to start at the top and work more with parents for this person. I would say the best place to start is to work first themselves on trying to improve their own understanding of executive functioning and kind of building strategies for some of those skills. And then as they start to build an understanding of that, to then as they have capacity to extend that out to the others, right? And I'm not saying that like you have to spend years and do nothing, but like if we're gonna prioritize where the effort is, kind of starting with can you try some things and figure out what works for you, and then slowly build out and work towards teaching some of those same things to the rest of the folks in the house. You know, the one thing that stood out to me was kind of the my husband didn't learn these things. And so kind of this idea that he can't do anything, and we don't need to blame him that he was never taught how to do any of these things. That's not his fault. And he also is an adult in this relationship and so is equally responsible for doing putting the work in to figure out what needs to happen to help the household overall.
SPEAKER_01I wonder too if it would make it like less miserable to learn and practice the executive functioning things together instead of you know the question asker feeling like she's got to do it all by herself, and then yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and like if I were working with a couple, which I've done that before, where I've like, you know, on the coaching side or even on the parenting side of like if I'm working with a couple, what I would start with is kind of looking at like where do they have their strengths and challenges and like number one, can we make sure that they're actually optimizing that? I can't tell you how many times when you start talking about like division of responsibilities in households, people just start doing things, and there's and you just like then you have a habit, and that's just how it is the rest of your relationship. And most of the time, there has never been a single conversation about like how challenging is this thing for you? And so I often recommend like make some lists of the household chores and like each of you go through and rate on a scale of one to ten, how difficult is it for you to initiate this task? I have kind of the inner equilibrium audit tool that I have built while I haven't yet one someday adaptation would be adaptation, would be to put that into like couples. But for now, I'm just like have both of you fill this out and then sit down and discuss it. Because again, I might rate something at like a three in terms of difficulty, and my partner might rate it at a seven, but my partner might be the one that's doing that thing. That makes zero sense, right? Because I might be able to take on you know three tasks for the amount of energy that it takes me to do this one. Now, the hard piece when you have, you know, multiple neurodivergent folks in a household is that sometimes nobody finds that task even relatively doable. Um, and that's probably where, again, if you do have the capital, when it is possible to, you know, pay somebody else to do it, that is the best option. I also think sometimes it's good to think more broadly too about like community care. Is there a swap, a skill swap that can happen if you don't have the finances? Like maybe you have a friend who's a really good cook and does not mind cooking. So could they cook? And maybe you are better at not this person, but someone else maybe better at cleaning. Um, and actually, I'm not good at cleaning, but I'll clean your house just fine. Um, just not mine. And so, like, you know, is there some kind of a skill swap, or maybe I can watch your kids and you cook? And like, so sometimes that's another thing to just like get creative and lean on community too. Um that if there's something that like I am absolutely neither of us is any good at, is there some way to outsource that if possible? But if not, can we then figure out a plan of what will it take and what are the ideal conditions to get that thing done that most needs to be done?
SPEAKER_00And like, can we share how shitty it is? Can it be a trade-off? Can we do it together? Like, will you sit with me in the kitchen while I cook and also with you in the kitchen while you cook? And so at least we're not doing it alone, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Whatever that happens to look like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think like body doubling is a huge one that a lot of times is helpful for folks let's both do the shitty task together and get it over with. And you know, can we pick an amount of time that feels tolerable? That's another thing I would say for that for that parent of like something to have like an immediate effect. One skill, and I heard this someplace, and I unfortunately can't say where it came from, but they called it like see a need, fill a need, right? And so, like set the timer for five minutes, and this can be including all the kids, and that for just five minutes, however often you feel like you can make this happen ideally every day, um, but even if it's a couple times a week, every single person just like literally stops where they are, uses their eyes, looks around, and like anything that's out of place, pick it up and take it to where it is supposed to be. It is shocking to me when we do that in our house, how different things can look. It doesn't fix everything, but like there can be a pretty huge difference with just that five minutes of work if everybody's doing it at the same time.
SPEAKER_00How do you deal with because one of the main things that I hear from ADHDers who live with other ADHDs, whatever, right, is like their version of clean's not my version of clean. So, like that five minutes see it task do a test. I have a lot of like blindness to the mess because I'm I'm a maximalist. I like my everything. And so, like, if I looked around, I'd be like, I guess I maybe see one thing I could do, but like I have a hard time with that where do I start issue. Where do you how does that fit in?
SPEAKER_02I think this is where like you can use that time as an opportunity to like also talk out through that. So, like, if you're using this, I actually really like that as an idea to teach children because they may not inherently see the things. And so if you run into that issue where we're all in the same place and you walked by this thing that to me seems obvious, but you didn't move. I think it's important, number one, to just start with exactly what you were saying, though, this understanding that like our brains just all process things differently, and what bothers me may not bother you, and it's not about not caring, it's just this is I have just learned that we are wired differently, and like certain things will bother some people and will not bother some people. And it's not about lack of caring, it's just our brains process and respond to the environments differently, and so I think we have to start with that understanding that like that's not a personal thing or that's not a bigger thing, it just it just is. And so then there needs to be some probably contracting about what is clean in our house, right? Or I I really like um, I think this concept kind of came from um Casey Davis How to Keep House While Drowning um book, which is a great resource for anybody who's interested in a starting place too. She talks a lot about like identifying what your like what is a level that you need to keep things functioning for your household. So rather than the goal being the dishes need to be done, you will always be disappointed. Because at least in my household, anytime I get the sink cleaned, if the goal is that the sink is empty, it takes less than five minutes before somebody finds a stray dish to put back in there. And so I'm gonna constantly get five minutes apiece if that's my goal. Instead, when I kind of read that and really processed that in our household, if we load in on the load the dishwasher at least once a day, it is functionable. There is almost always some dishes in our sink, but like they're not there long enough that they're getting stinky, creating, you know, bug problems or anything like that. There's we can get, you know, nobody's like running out of glasses or silverware usually at that frequency. And for the most part, you are not gonna not have some pot you need to cook, right? So that is our level of functioning. And so so long as we keep up with that, the house runs fairly smoothly, right? So, like, that's a way to be like that is our level of clean regarding dishes that feels sustainable.
SPEAKER_00It almost sounds like you're talking about it as a skill that you're like teaching the kids, teaching yourself. One of the things that stood out to me in this question is like my 10 and 12 year olds act like they don't understand instructions, which like is putting a lot of uh motive somewhere. But it almost sounds like you view it as very like this is a teachable skill thing.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think that's the other piece when I'm working with parents in particular, and I actually would say the same thing for the husband is that I think as a whole, and this is not on any one person, we forget that we need to learn every single skill. And so parents in particular make the assumption that just because I have done this thing around you a thousand times, that you will have learned that skill through osmosis, and that's just not how it works. Like, and I can relate to that. How many times have you guys drove, you know, drove someplace with somebody, but if but you were never the driver, and so if somebody asked you to hop in and you should know the route, are you gonna know it? I don't even know what I've driven at. And so, like it takes me to do repetition. That's like that's my example I like to use a lot because most people can relate to that. And so it's the same thing here of just because you've swept the floor in front of me doesn't mean I've actually watched and paid attention to the steps and the order and exactly the technique that you use to do so.
SPEAKER_00I may know that yes, there's a broom and a dustpan involved, but I don't know to like go around the outside and then get closer and closer to a door and like you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_02I don't know how to push it into it properly, yeah, all those things. And so, so yeah, so I think like um that's for parents. It's also just realizing that everything is a skill that needs to be taught. The question I try to ask myself, because I also have those thoughts of like you should know how to do this, and then I catch myself and I go, Have I actually taught my children this skill? And almost always the answer is no.
SPEAKER_01Right. There are also so many memory things that can affect that too. You know, as you're saying, like everybody's brains are wired different, and it doesn't mean they don't care. Definitely, you know, if you get a traumatic brain injury, even if you used to know logically or that you learned, okay, we brush things into the center of the room, it may not mean that you always remember that. And same with ADHD or Autistic folks, sometimes our memory stuff gets in the way of recalling it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the other thing that is a really important, I think, just like key point to make for any parents that might be listening is that for ADHD children in particular, and this is also here's the thing. Is pretty much everything that's true for children is also true for adults. Um, is that because of those memory issues, it's really hard to remember a sequence of steps. Oh my god, it's a lot of people. Often what happens is that parents will give multiple instructions at once. Okay, I want you to go downstairs, you're gonna grab this basket, you're gonna do this and this and this. And then their child may do one of those steps, and then there's a frustration because, well, I asked you to do these things and you didn't do them. Again, this is all in of the executive functioning skills for ADHD in particular. I really believe that working memory is the core thing to focus on. Just because when you really break down all of the frustrations and relational challenges, it it often comes back to working memory issues.
SPEAKER_00And so often those working memory issues get labeled as if you cared, you'd remember. My mother used to say that to my sister who hasn't been diagnosed, but I wouldn't be surprised. But she would really get on this thing of like, you're not paying attention on purpose, you're not remembering to do this thing that I asked you to do on purpose because you don't care, and like that's a problem, and you are a problem at it. That A, that shame is not helpful, right? Yep. It's just gonna lead to lying and God knows what else. And at the same time, it also doesn't actually make it easier to remember. Like I remember in my ADHD test, I got read like eight numbers in a sequence, and I had to give them forward, backward, and then in any order. And my math learning disability didn't help there. But like I just I couldn't, like, not even in any order could I give back the sequence of numbers.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yeah. And the thing with working memory that I think becomes really tricky too is that it can be so inconsistent, right? This is what makes it harder for people to grasp. Lots of us as therapists, like I remember details about some of my clients that I haven't seen for five years. Like I can tell you all their kids' names and all their special interests and all those things. But if you ask me what I had for lunch just today, I don't have an answer for you, right? I get it, because logically that seems strange. And that's the thing is like we just don't get to choose when it strikes and when it doesn't, and it might be inconsistent all the time. What that means is the only thing is is that like we need to externalize all information. And I always tell my clients the sooner that you can just accept that your memory is inconsistent and that you need to start using external methods, your life will go a hundred times smoother. And so then if we apply that for parents, now I'm not saying it's perfect by any means, there's still lots of work to do with that, but like it's such a acceptance is the key.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and it's a hard thing to accept. I talk about this. I literally I was five minutes from my office this morning, and I had a thought based on the book that I was listening to about like, oh, like that'd be a cool like post or something. And I have a running notes app for this reason. But I was driving and I was like, I don't need to like pull over and write this down. Like, I'll be fine. I'm gonna, I'm literally like, I can I'm on the road the next turn is the office. And of course I get there, completely have forgotten about it already. Talk to my client about like acceptance, it's a big part of da-da-da-da. Like, you cannot actually like accommodate yourself if you have not accepted like what you need accommodations around. And only remembered as I got back in my car and drove away from the office. Shit, I had a thing I wanted to remember and write down, and I can't, it's completely gone. I have nothing of it left.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And that that which also is a whole different um, there's all sorts of emotions that come as a result of that, right? Which is where shame doesn't work because I promise you that we have so much shame already about this thing. And it is baffling to us. Like, that's an example that feels baffling. Like you really intended to remember and you didn't. The example similar to that I often give is that like um for a long time, like my husband would be the one to pick up our kid at daycare after school. So, like when I had to, that's out of my routine. And I know because this has happened numerous times, like I will be, I know that's where I'm going and where I'm driving, but then like one thought pops in and I will find myself down the road from the daycare place and like have to stop and turn around and come back, right? I promise you, I care about my child. And and because I know this is a thing that happens for me, I have even been in this situation. My strategy for myself when that's happening is to just say to myself over and over, like, you were picking your kid up at daycare, you're picking your kid up at daycare, you're like, like that's like my strategy sometimes, right? And even when I am doing that, even when I am on my way, I still will have had times that I am like doing that, but all it took was one thought to come in, pull me off course, you know, I'm halfway down the road that I have to stop and turn around. And some people will be like, How could you forget your kid?
SPEAKER_01Muscle memory sneaking.
SPEAKER_02This is why I use this example to you. I can't explain that to you.
SPEAKER_00Like, this is just what happens. And it's hard to because in other ways, like I will often use that exact mechanism as a support, as a when you are hyper-focused or like really ruminating on something that you said wrong or like something you're anxious about or whatever. See if you can hook any other thought that comes because it's something else completely random, not related to it at all, is gonna come through. Try to like grab onto it and like get carried away. And that's one of the beauties of the ADHD brain, but it is also a huge pain in the ass.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. So, anyhow, that that's a big one. I mean, I think there's just a lot of core. My first step is like really to understand each of the executive functioning skills and understand what they are and then what it what you need to do in response to those challenges to support them. And again, like there's a lot of personalized stuff that has to happen with those strategies. But if you can at least understand that basic pieces, especially from the parent lens, that helps a lot as well. Because rather than any assumptions you start making, you know, I try to the first like helpful frame that I try to have for parents is to ask themselves, what's getting what might be getting in the way here? Right. So what do I know? Instead of instead of assuming they're not listening, well, in my house, honestly, problem number one is that like I holler requests from three rooms away with doors shut. Um now, my husband and I are baffled by the fact that like whenever we are trying to have a private conversation in very normal voices, people are right in, like right in there and somehow we hear those. But anytime we're like literally hollering anymore for somebody to like come to dinner, nobody can hear us. But my but but my point is is like that's my first thing I always check is like, could they even physically hear me? Number two, then understanding the ADHD brain, did they like did they have the capacity to process? Even if they could physically hear me, did they have the capacity to process? Because if they are like in a preferred activity, I need to get their attention and then like wait until I know that they have shifted their attention and then make the request in order for them to even have a chance to process and to hear me.
SPEAKER_00And I know we'll we'll move to the next question in a moment, but part of getting that attention is also recognizing like if I'm playing a video game, especially that doesn't have a pause, and you try to pull my attention and you do it with such an aggression that I actually do give it to you, you don't have actually my full attention and I don't have processing capabilities. I'm pissed off. Like I'm dying in my game right now. What the fuck do you want? This is not the time. And so there, there I think for a lot of adults is an assumption of like my kid just needs to be able to immediately give me attention. Yes. And for a lot of kids in general, that's hard, but especially for an ADHD, I'm in my activity and it takes mental strain. There was a creator that I follow who talked about it as like all of my eight octopus tentacles are wrapped around this activity, and I have to unstick every single thing of every one of my tentacles off of this activity to get to the next one. Like, that's a lot of effort, man. Give me a sec.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's another piece. I really try to the approach that I use is like try to be based in neuroscience as well. Is this expectation reasonable for anybody of this developmental age? Then let's also take into account that if we're talking about ADHDers or a lot of autistic folks, their executive functioning skills are gonna lag by at least a few years, which I'm not, I don't like to use a lot of comparison stuff. And in this example, I do actually find it's helpful for parents to like have that concrete thing to be like, hey, you know, yes, other kids this age, number one, can they even do this? And my child is likely gonna take a bit longer to learn this skill, if at all, because again, we all have individual capacities. And so, um so for one, is this realistic for anybody of this age, right? Like it is not reasonable to expect a five-year-old to, you know, load a dishwasher that is spatially set up properly, right? Like they can put dishes into a dishwasher, they they do not have the spatial skills from a neurological development thing to be able to like decide what is the best way to fill this space. Right, to jjango them, and so that's not a reasonable expectation for me to have. Now I can help to teach them some tips that they could learn to potentially repeat, right? But like, um but that that's kind of a good piece. And the other big thing that you were just saying is also like is would I have the same expectation for an an adult? Right. So if my boss if I have a boss and my boss interrupts me and says, like, hey, can you do this for me? Are you literally gonna pop up and do that? Or are you gonna be like, Yeah, let me finish this email and typing and then I'll take care of that for you?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02And like, so we don't expect adults to literally pop up immediately and do a thing. So is it reasonable through a neuroscience perspective to to especially when you're pulling a child probably from a preferred task to a non-preferred task? Um, it's really unreasonable as far as like a thing. And again, but we all have that assumption. I don't blame anybody. I'm guilty of doing I say these I have to like remind myself of these same skills all the time. Because again, as a parent, when you're feeling overwhelmed, you just want this thing done. And and this is where also, if you're a neurodivergent parent, like for me, I know sometimes I have to blurt out the thing right now, even though my kid might not be listening, because my working memory means I might not remember in two minutes by the time I walk down the hall and ask them. And so that's where we start to see all those like competing needs bump up against each other.
SPEAKER_01Our next one here says, I know you all aren't my therapists, let me just say that first. But I was recently speaking with my therapist, and every meeting ends with me feeling like I need to provide more structure for my kids to help them follow rules, get chores done, and get homework done better. We are all Aud of different styles, and I am a single mom, so my time is stretched thin between one middle schooler and two high schoolers. I'm concerned that they will not graduate and will never be able to find a job or take initiative, which also leads me to worry that they may never be able to have roommates or marry anyone because they have no skills for things like attending meetings and appointments, any part of the homework or chore process, are not very thoughtful or considerate about others, don't like to communicate about emotions, and I could go on, but I don't want to make them sound horrible because they are truly fun and loving kids. I feel like I missed my chance to set them up for success and relationships outside of family ones.
SPEAKER_00Holy snowball, Batman.
SPEAKER_01And there's actually not a question here, which I kind of like when we get those, but we can kind of interpret this in in whichever way and you know, right back in if we missed your your the core of what you're bringing to us here. But yeah, where does your brain go first, Bobby Joe?
SPEAKER_02The themes that I hear there, if I take a step back, are this parent has a lot of worries about their child's future. That's a really common thing that we deal with. And so that's one point. And I'm also hearing some guilt about feeling like they didn't do enough. I mean, so if this person were in therapy with me, I probably would want to explore those pieces from a more emotional lens a little bit. And then there is probably some practicality to bring back in though, like what can be done and some of those things. But the reassurance that I tend to offer a lot of parents is just like because of my experience working with folks of all ages, of all different things, like we just can't know what this means for somebody in their future, right? Um, and those fears are valid. And if we're being honest and realistic, like many neurodivergent people do struggle to meet neuro, you know, neuronormative expectations of how life should progress. And so I do think that it is good to check what are those expectations that you have, and do they even make sense?
SPEAKER_00Um they're disabilities for a reason. Like ADHD is a disability, autism is a disability. We can't pretend that they're not disabling because they're disabilities.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01And many disabled people have very happy, fulfilling lives, uh, get married, have a job, take initiative, all the worries that are that are brought up in this.
SPEAKER_00And even have none of those things and still have a fulfilling life. One of the things that gets me in here is like uh feeling like I need to provide structure for my kids to help them do all these things. And I I hear that a lot of the like, oh my gosh, I have to give them so much structure, and like it's unreasonable. Or I'm not able to give that structure, and thus it must be that like it can't need that much structure, right? There's like a dichotomy that starts happening around, well, if I can't offer it, then they must not need it that bad because I have to be able to give them what they need. That's just that's my role as a parent. And it becomes this like either or that like really is not true or helpful, right? It has to be able to be, they have a need, and you can't actually necessarily meet every single one of their needs all by yourself. And so it's like we were saying earlier, Bobby Joe, about like can some of that structure come from somewhere else? Can school help? This is what school accommodations are for. Can you get a tutor? Like, can they body double with friends? Like, where else can you get because a lot of ADHDs need huge amounts of structure in school, out of school, like moving forward? We don't need to shame that. We just need to create it.
SPEAKER_02And I think the other important point there too is like if you are parenting multiple children, every single one of those, even if they all have the same neurotype, like my two kids have extremely different presentations, and I have to parent them in completely different ways um in terms of meeting their own needs, right? And so um which again, it's just all an experiment process until you kind of figure out what works. But like some kids actually do better, you know. Yes, structure is generally good for most ADHDers, but there's also some people that when things are too structured, that does not work for them at all. And so some need less structure, but maybe other kinds of supports to like keep them on track, but to not have things be so mandated or specific or whatever, it's a really delicate balance. There's a lot of assumptions, I think, that are happening underlying all of those pieces for that person. And so I'd probably start by just challenging a lot of those assumptions and kind of looking at what parts are working, and and there may be some places where there is a need to put more structure in place or to work on some specific things, and then again, what would it take for that parent to be able to implement that in just that one area to start with, right? And then, like when that starts to feel a little bit better, then can we move on to the next thing and kind of build slowly?
SPEAKER_00There's like this whole list of things, right? Follow rules, get chores done, get homework done better, prepare for after high school, all these things. That's a lot to juggle, even for like a neurotypical kid, that'd be a lot to juggle, right? If you could throw one of those out and it just like it can't matter anymore because there isn't space, like you only get two slots and you got three things you want to get done. You can't just magically make a new slot. So, what are you getting rid of? Personally, I would pull chores out of that and see like Bobby Joe was saying, like, can a friend come over and help me do stuff around my house? Or can I say, like, hey, get all your friends to come over and help you do yours, and then you go over to their house and help them do something else, and you know, whatever. Um, but like it might literally not be possible to do all of them.
SPEAKER_01Just was chuckling a little because my dad had really poor executive functioning skills for anything outside of pyramid schemes. That's where he was top of his game.
SPEAKER_00Nobody.
SPEAKER_01So his car was just always so messy, and every couple weekends he would get me and some of my best friends and say, Alright, I'm gonna take you all to Chuck E. Cheese, we just have to clean the car first. It worked every time, and we got that car clean and now I know how to clean it up.
SPEAKER_00And he turned it into a little pyramid scheme. Look at him guys.
SPEAKER_01He sure did, and then we'd go to Chuck E. Cheese and enjoy ourselves, but it was like that didn't feel as horrible of a chore as some of the household chores felt because it was like, oh, this is a fun do it with friends, get an immediate reward. Yeah, the the reward now, knowing what I know, I probably wouldn't do a lot of rewards-based stuff, uh, but it was like better than if I had just been like told to go clean dad's car. No, that's not happening, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I hear you on the rewards thing. I also sometimes think that like it doesn't always work to just be like no rewards ever.
SPEAKER_02That's how I feel too. I I always have mixed feelings about rewards. I think the big thing is like, can we stay away from like I am withholding your favorite things unless you do this, right? Versus, for example, I I did just like I am debating about whether I um go through the executive functioning to hire somebody to help with landscaping because my physical health issues are now making that just a task I can no longer handle. Um, and so I was like, well, I was thinking about paying somebody else. And so I did have some capacity and I like put it out there with my kid when we had time one day. I was like, I could pay you a decent amount. Like, do you want, you know, do you want to make some money? First, and we we did a certain amount of time and our capac, you know, we got a small area done, but it was a reward of a certain amount of money that was motivating for her to do that. And I, you know, I could have asked.
SPEAKER_00You also would have given that same reward to someone else, like instead of giving her right of rights of first refusal, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I was going to pay somebody else. So, like, if I'm gonna pay someone else, why not, you know, do that? And again, it was very motivating. Um, you know, because then she wanted her favorite thing is to go to the store and buy stuff, and so then she got to go do that. And now the thing is I can't do that because you know, I can't do that consistently, and like um, you know, there's other pieces that come in there, like it will only hold that merit for so long. Like now she knows that pulling weeds is not very fun, and so I don't know how much I would be able to motivate her to do it more, but like again, occasional use I think of them um is sometimes useful. And some people find that even for themselves. Like, there are many folks I work with that like, you know, okay, once I get my homework done, I'm gonna treat myself to this thing. Well, and I think it works for you, right?
SPEAKER_00Like, that's what ends up happening is like people will be like, well, rewards are bad. And it's like, okay, cool, but like then I don't get a good internal feeling when I finish the thing. I just feel deflated and tired and exhausted from having done it because that's just not how my brain actually reward like other people are getting an internal reward when they do things. I don't get that. So now you're also telling me that it's bad if I externally reward myself, and so now I just have to do all the same shitty things I don't want to do, and I'm a bad person if I reward like I just I can't buy into that in any functional way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you're not, you know, listeners, you're not a bad person if you give yourself a reward. I think the nuance there that is often oversimplified is more along the terms of like the long-term token economy, constant rewards upping the the ante with it, if you will. Like that is that's when the the issues come around. If people are interested, there's a book called Punished by Rewards that talks a little more thoroughly about what effect rewards and a reward economy type of system uh brings about.
SPEAKER_00So cautious.
SPEAKER_01I I would say parents be cautious with rewards and what that looks like.
SPEAKER_00And like actually have the conversation. Like, I think so. I I'm only halfway through Earth Punished by Rewards because actually it's a little hard for me because I'm in the part of the book that's very like fuck everyone who's ever given a reward to anyone for any reason ever. And so it's just hard for my brain because I'm like, I disagree with that. Yeah, I also didn't like some disrespect to a black woman in that book, but oh yeah. But I do think that there's like a lot more, like if you have the conversation with your child up front, hey, it's not gonna be that we do this every single time. And like, I know that getting this homework done is like really, really shitty for you. So so that our night doesn't end super shitty, why don't you do the homework and then we can go out and do this thing you want to do, or watch your favorite movie, or do something that feels good because you just worked really hard on a thing, and it's not as a like you only get good things when you work hard. Well, also watch your favorite movie this weekend when you've done nothing, right? Actually, making it a conversation with them so that they can also opt in or opt out and say, like, no, I don't want it to be tied to my favorite movie that I have to do all this hard work. Like, I want to do it, whatever.
SPEAKER_01Cool. And turning all of this into a conversation, you know, that you're concerned that you've not set them up for success. We maybe the the wording could look a little different, but asking them. You know, hey, I think you said two high schoolers, one middle schooler. Hey, what do you all feel like you need from me to set you up for success in adulthood? Is there anything I've missed? And maybe they give you a laundry list, but maybe they're like, no, everything's cool. I'm just kind of like my friends are. I don't see any differences. Or someone might say, Oh, I well, you never taught me how to apply for a job and I need a summer job. Like something might come up from that question that you haven't even considered. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I do find it helpful sometimes too. That's exactly kind of the approach I will talk about with that. Is again, some of it is like the societal pressure that you must know how to do all of these things. We all have to learn at some point, and like, yes, you know, if I don't know how to schedule an appointment, that is a skill that is helpful to be able to schedule appointments to manage your health. And and this is where there's like that both and of um, I talk a lot about like the first step I think for parents can be assessing, okay, here is a skill. Where is my child at with this skill right now? So now I can decide where's the baseline, and then I can figure out what type of support do they need to be able to move forward. Um, but also there are depends on you know, disability and capacity, and there are some folks that may never be able to do some things independently. Um, and that just is what it is. Um, and so that but that also doesn't mean we don't try at all either, because that's not helpful. And so I think it's finding that like middle ground of can I kind of assess where they are at and is there some steps that we can take towards building that skill? Um, it is really hard with teens because obviously, like there has to be some desire in buy-in kind of for them to be willing to work on a lot of that stuff. And again, like it just isn't going to be enticing until you need to, like, you know, if I'm 13 and you're like, hey, do you want to learn how to schedule doctor's appointments? No, I don't.
SPEAKER_00I'm so far away from needing to do that.
SPEAKER_02But that is something too, though, that I have seen that can be sometimes an option too, is just like providing those opportunities. I know there was um somebody that I have followed that, like, there's this is the scaffolding piece of if you have a 16-year-old, like, could you coach them on how to call and set up an appointment, but sit with them the whole time and like they can call and do that. If they get stuck, they can ask you to step in for them. Um, so you're there to help them. But like there is ways you can start to provide opportunities for small stuff or even household things, right? Of like, hey, we're out of light bulbs. Can you go look up, you know, what what you know, number of light bulbs this is that we need and write that down. So when we go to the store, you can help us find the right, like just little stuff like that of household things that you can involve them in and like provide opportunities for them to like start to build some of those skills, but with your support to be there to back them up. Um, I think is a good neutral way of just again offering opportunities or sometimes a gentle nudging of like, hey, you're gonna you're gonna call and order the pizza today. Um, you know.
SPEAKER_01During that first question, Bobby Joe, you'd mentioned like the is it the inner equilibrium audit?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is that appropriate for like older teens, like 16 plus? Would you suggest mostly for 18 plus?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it wasn't necessarily designed with teens in mind. However, there's kind of like four different sections. So it basically just has people kind of look at every single task that they do in their life, and there's different sections. So there's a personal section, a work section, which may or may not apply to teens. Um, and then there is an education one, which while again I kind of designed that with college in mind, it could um be useful to some pieces of it at least might be useful um for teens, and then parenting as well, um, and kind of parenting related tasks. And so um then people kind of choose which of those domains that they're working in. Um but yeah, I think there is pieces of it or the concepts of it that could at least be helpful. Um and part of that's just I don't work directly with teens and so um very often. So I haven't tested it or I haven't adapted it fully for that population. But even without that particular tool, the idea is just with the the audit is some of the basic executive functioning stuff of like helping people, how long does this task take? I cannot time manage and plan if I don't have an accurate estimate of how long it takes. And I could go on a long tangent about why that's so hard for ADHDers to even do that piece, but that is one thing that's really helpful. And then what is the difficulty with task initiation and noticing? Like, are there different times of day that you tend to be better able to do this thing? Or is there any sensory kind of things involved with this task? Sometimes when people look at that, they're like, Oh, I see now that I really have a hard task time with any tasks that involve icky ickiness, right? Like cleaning stuff. Okay. Is there a way that we can accommodate some of those needs to make that less unpleasant for you, right? Like, as simple as it is, some people don't realize you could wear gloves while you're cleaning, right? Like, and that could take away some of the ickiness, right? Um maybe now it's not as hard to initiate that task as it was before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it sounds like a lot of exploration is the goal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but yeah, I think that that resource is kind of just really the goal of it is to help increase people's own kind of self-perception of their experience so that they can use those building blocks to help them with kind of time management and planning and identifying what does help me to be successful with completing different types of tasks.
SPEAKER_00So nice cool. Okay, well, let's hop over to record our guest bonus content, which is the hit me again um episode. So that'll be streaming on private podcast stream for our paid members over on our Patreon. We'll be sharing our personal favorite tips and tricks, and we'll also talk about where we struggle, what we've done to strengthen our executive functioning skills and compensate for some of those like lagging spots or weaker spots that we have. Um, you can expect new episodes as always on Tuesdays. You can find Kate at Cryptid Learns. You can find me at Radical Insights Consulting. Man, did I lose my spot in this paragraph? It's great. And you can find Bobby Joe on Facebook or Instagram at EmbraceThe Muchness, all one word, or check out her links in our show notes. And then you can add a.com to either Kate or I's website, like usual. You know this part, everyone. Follow the podcast on Facebook and Instagram at AcesUp Your Sleeve Pod so you can interact with us and see when new episodes release. Um, if you have any questions for us, visit neurokink.org slash a ui s. Send it our way. We want your questions. So we're gonna go record, hit me again, and find that at patreon.com slash aces up your sleeves podcasts. And tier start as low as four dollars. So come hang out with us. Um, we really appreciate our patrons. They really, really help us make this content, um, which we really enjoy making. And thank you for listening. Bye bye.
