Differences Between OCD and Autism with Dr. Karissa Burnett

On this week’s episode, we’re joined by the amazing Karissa Burnett! Dr. Burnett is explaining what OCD is, why autistic folks are more likely to struggle with this, and how to figure out if you have OCD. She also explains the evaluation process and what to look for in an assessor.

Show notes: 

• Karissa’s website: www.divergentpathways.com
• Karissa’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/divergentpathways
• Karissa’s Instagram: www.instagram.com/divergentpathways

To ask us questions, fill out the form at www.neurokink.org/auys

Find more content on Patreon (18+): www.patreon.com/AcesUpYourSleevePodcast

Sabrina at www.radicalingingishtsconsulting.com or @radicalinsightsconsulting on social media (FB, IG)

Kade at www.cryptidlearns.com or @cryptidlearns on social media (FB, IG)

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

This is the Aces Up Your Sleeve podcast, and we're the Aces Up Your Sleeve in relationships, from romantic to workplace, parental to platonic, your relationship with yourself and everything in between. Let us, two autistic aspect kinky therapists, be your secret weapon in neurodivergent life.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

This is your disclaimer. This is not therapy or therapeutic advice, and we are not on the clock. This is for entertainment purposes only. This is not a replacement for therapy. What you'll hear are our thoughts on different topics, what we might do in the situation, and how we've supported others through similar things. I'm your host, Sabrina.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

And I'm your other host, Cade.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

And we are super excited today to have our lovely guest come and talk with us about the differences between OCD and autism. Dr. Carissa Burnett, she her, is a depth psychologist and trauma specialist known for bridging science with soul. As the founder of Divergent Pathways and a late diagnosed autistic ADHD her herself, she offers transformative therapeutic assessments and therapy intensives that help clients come home to their true selves. She's been featured in National Geographic and the APA's Monitor on Psychology magazine for advancing neurodiversity affirming care. And she is committed to disability justice, providing consultation to the ACLU, using her voice to promote systemic change. If you're located in California, Massachusetts, New York, Washington, and you want an assessment or you want to attend a therapy intensive, I bet she'd even explain what that is to you if you were interested. Um, or if you're a clinician locating anywhere and want to consult with her, check out the show notes for all of her links.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Yeah, thanks for joining us today, Carissa.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, you too. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

We're excited to talk OCD. Yeah, and to have you. Yeah, we get lots of questions about OCD, and you see it a lot in online spaces too. You know, people wondering like, is this ADHD, OCD, autism? Am I just quirky? So I think our questions today really echo that.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Yeah, I think there's a lot of overlap, and people get confused, especially with how like colloquialized OCD has become of like, oh, well, you like things neat. So you must be OCD or this time a third. And so I'm hopeful we can dispel some myths and get some things accurate.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Sweet. Yeah, it's it's kind of um in prepping, it it was almost hard to get a pulse on what it truly, truly is, but hopefully we can get into it and and make some things clearer.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Well, let's jump right in. Uh so most of our listeners do know what autism is. Lots of them are autistic themselves. But could you start us off by explaining what OCD is?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah. So when it comes down to it, with OCD, a person is disabled by self-doubt. So that's really like at the heart of it. So it's not just about being anxious or having repetitive thoughts or repetitive behaviors, kind of how it looks on the outside often. It really comes down to being about not being able to trust your own mind, your intentions, or your sense of self. And since I'm a deaf psychologist, I have to bring in Freud for a second because I think it can be helpful. It he called it the doubting mania back in the day.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

That makes sense because it can look and feel like you're getting very spun up with whatever it is that you're focusing on.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, you'll hear like it's it's defined by obsessions and compulsions. Yes. And so what that means is like an obsession, maybe there's an intrusive thought, image, or urge, but it throws you into doubt. So that's the key thing. Like it's doubt about your character, your safety, your intentions. And then the compulsive piece, that's what like something you do to try to make that doubt go away. That can look like like classic checking behaviors someone might think about, but also can look like confessing, mentally reviewing, seeking reassurance. Um, and the cruel part, what's really interesting about this is like the doubt is is often an imagined possibility and can can really be like the opposite of the person's true self and true character. And and it can be really, really distressing to get kind of trapped in this doubt about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

So confessing like um behavior you're just talking about sounds to me like it would be extra challenging for an autistic person who might have very like direct salvage communication or like kind of a lot of challenge with like not stating the thing, which is something that I fear often from autistic folks. Is that is that something you see commonly?

unknown 4:49

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah, that's a good point. That probably is is part of why um OCD does seem to be a lot more common in autistic people. There's also often like this gaslighting of the autistic person's perception and feelings since they were young, that often is a thing. Not always, but often. And I think that can contribute to OCD. Because when it comes down to it from like a depth perspective, the person who has OCD often um certain feelings have kind of been defended against. And and uh there's a tendency to default to go into the mind to figure out, well, what if da-da-da, you know, and really, really in the mind. But uh if you were more in your true feelings, that can help make decisions or figure out the answer and stuff. But it's like OCD is a trap because you're in your head instead, and the head can't always figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Makes sense. And our brains love to fill in blanks too. So if we're curious about something, wondering if there's not certainty, the human mind loves to try to fill it in, and sometimes we fill it in with things that are not accurate.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

Well, our first question for today, uh, we've got, how do I know if I have OCD or if it's my autism making me weird? I like to count everything I do, like putting away groceries or steps I take to get the mail, and I need to know what's happening a day or more ahead. I have a vivid imagination and worry a lot about uh what bad accidents might happen. I worry about going to therapy in case they freak out at some of my thoughts and send me to a hospital or involuntary hold. Is there a test I can take online?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

A lot of good questions there that do reflect some common things I hear and and fears underneath that it sucks that they're so prevalent. Um but okay, so there's a few pieces there. Um first off, it's really about what what is the what's going on underneath. So it's about what it's for, the behaviors. So autistic routines, autistic behaviors, organizing, things like that are usually something what's called egosyntonic. So that means like aligned. Um it feels good. There's something regulating about it, there's something positive or adaptive, healthy. Um, it's it's not hurting anyone or the person. Um, whereas an OCD type behavior, it comes from fear. Like fear is underneath, dread. Um, if I don't line this up a certain way or collect this thing, I'm uh what if oh no? And like there's this real like fear that if they don't do the thing, what if like something really bad could happen? So that's the main differential there. It can be hard to parse out sometimes, but but it's really about the function. So there are questionnaires online. Um, one is called the Y B O C S. Um, another one's called the OCIR. I know for sure the OCIR is available on novopsy.com, but with these questionnaires, and especially the Y B O C S, when I think about it, it has like obsessions and compulsions, but there's often such an intersection with like just compensatory behaviors for ADHD or autism, for example, like checking that I locked the door. Various people could could answer that they do that a lot. But the question is, what's happening if they don't go back to check the door? Why do they feel driven to check the door? Is it because they have made that mistake before and it's actually like, yeah, maybe it makes sense to check it? Or are they checking it for the ninth time because something in them won't let them believe that they have locked it? And like it's this real deep fear and dread that, oh my God, if I don't go back again, you know, it's so even taking those questionnaires.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Is the fear and dread there? Cause like this is a great example. Um, I literally just like drove not all the way home, but I hadn't gotten all the way to work, but back a good little bit back into my neighborhood to double check that I had closed the garage because I've forgotten to do that like three or four times um in the past, like this calendar year. And so my fear and dread was like, shit, I've forgotten to do this again, like, you know, all these different things, right? But that would be different than like an OCD fear of dread would maybe be something that was like less attached to like something that has actually happened in the past. Does that feel accurate?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Yeah, that's a tough, that's a tough one. You're almost bordering in the territory a little bit, I would say. It's there's a fine line. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

It's hard because there's so much nuance. I mean, if if that happens maybe just once this year or twice this year, if this is like starts happening weekly, um, I think that also might push us in.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

I've done it four times.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Yeah. You know, because frequency and intensity, I think, really matter. You know, correct me if I'm wrong, Chris, about for OCD. Yeah. Because I know there's been times where when life feels out of control, I definitely, you know, checking, did I lock the door because at some point my partner had left it wide open? And luckily the cats didn't run away, but we have cats, and that fear, even though I'm pretty sure I closed it, I would have to go back and double check. And then when life feels a little more regulated, I don't do that. But that type of stuff trickles more into the OCD area because the the fear and dread of it, I couldn't not go back and check. I couldn't just, you know, call and wake him up and be like, can you go check the front door? I think I didn't, I had to go see it for myself.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Right. Yeah, absolutely. I I think that that's a good example of maybe where it does veer into that territory. It's a very common tendency in autistic people to be a bit obsessively inclined, which is like this tendency to kind of go in the head, which I know is a little abstract, but we tend to kind of we think bottom up and there's like a loopin-ness and we're monotropic and driven often toward like a feeling of like completion, right? And the pattern. So, so it all kind of lends itself to this. Go ahead, Sabrina.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

The term for autism in a lot of different languages is something around being in their own world, being in their own head, being in their own space and time. Like there are lots of languages that have formed their understanding of autism around exactly what you're saying about like being in your own head.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

How do you feel about this person's worry that if they go to therapy, the therapists will freak out and hospitalize them? Does that is that similar to what you've seen therapists react to OCD thoughts with?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

I haven't seen it firsthand, but I can um imagine that probably with people who aren't trained in in OCD, there might be some. I don't know if I could swear on here, but Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

You are very welcome to say.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

I could imagine there's been some fuckery. So I don't want to like minimize or discount that if that has happened. But if a if a clinician knows about OCD, like they should know this inherently, what the person is so afraid of or seeing like an intrusive thought that's really disturbing or something. They should know that's probably actually the opposite of what the person wants. Like it's distressing, it's disturbing to them. Um it's it's not aligned with their character. And that's a lot of the work is helping them realize that. Literally, it's it's doubt, not desire. Um, and good clinicians know that. And it is really important to work with a clinician if you're experiencing these things. I mean, because even like the online questionnaires, maybe it's helpful to get a feel for it. But again, it's so much about like the function, what's underneath it. And it could be really helpful to work with a clinician to kind of tease that out and figure out when you're in more OCD space, because it almost has like an energy signature, which I could talk about in a sec. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

I was just gonna say I'm with you on some of those online assessments. You know, I use the Y box and the Psy box, which is like the children's version with my clients, but it it turns into more of a discussion, especially anything where there's like it could be a sensory reason, or it could be an OCD reason. It could be a expectation sensitivity reason, or it could be, yeah. And when you're home alone at your computer, you're doing it by yourself, there's not that room to have the conversation to parse out like what is under it as much. I will also say before you jump into that energy piece, the person who wrote in didn't say anything like this, but I know that one of the big worries with, you know, quote unquote, like getting sent away to a hospital or an involuntary hold usually comes with some of the more taboo topics that OCD can prompt, kind of like what you were saying about ego dystonic. So anything around incest, pedophilia, uh homicidal thoughts, or any of those more intense taboo ones, I would recommend making sure that whatever provider you want to reach out to specifically lists on their website that they help people with that, because those are the ones where I've heard the most harm getting done by clinicians who just don't they don't recognize that it's OCD, they think it's something else, they misunderstand mandated reporting, or they get freaked out and go outside of their wheelhouse, you know, all those types of things are possible.

unknown 14:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Especially finding like a specifically anti-carceral therapist. Um, a lot of times they will list it again on their website, things like that. Um, those are going to be therapists who don't believe in involuntary holds and in hospitalization that does not have client consent attached to it or involving police systems of any kind.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

But I'd love to hear more of what you're thinking about that energy signature, because I think I know what you mean, but I don't know if I could put it into words. I'll give it a shot.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

But great points you just said. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's there's nuances, but uh overall, it's so trippy. Um there's often so like the person with OCD tends to be in their head, right? And almost like in their imagination. It's the imagination that that goes with this doubt and then like makes a whole scene or like gives all this what if, blah, blah, blah, it could happen, blah, blah, blah. And then you're like picturing what could happen, and and it's all like in the head, and it's like a spiral and it goes and goes and goes. That has like this energy signature. It's it's almost like the idea is if you can catch it, that's helpful because it feels different than than other baseline like experiences or feelings. It feels like insecurity, dread, fear, there's no answer. Keep going, just that filled with doubt in the in the head, imagining. And and if you really work on it eventually, at least I'm grateful I got to this point in my own OCD journey of life. Um, but like, wait, whoa, I'm in my imagination right now. I'm in like this what if spiral. I can like check it and like tell sometimes. I try.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

It's almost like lucid dreaming.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Kinda. That's a good comparison. Yeah. Like it reminds me of like hell instead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yeah. Like a lot of my work with my BPD has been to understand like when am I in rejection brain is like how I kind of coin it for myself, right? And so, like, when something has happened and I'm like, yeah, like building that narrative. And then if if I'm this kind of person, well, no, I can't be. And so they must be this kind of person, like that kind of space, like feels very similar to me actually as similar times that I have like lucid dreams where it's like, I can tell, like it almost feels dissociative. Like I'm sitting there watching myself be like, hey friend, like that's not you haven't eaten in a couple hours. Can you eat something? Can you like drink something? Can you like call someone who you know loves you? Like all the skills I've built and all the things that I know, especially as a therapist, that might help. And then there's also the me that's inside of it, and who's like, kind of know, like kind of I'm in this right now. And like, why are you trying to poke holes in my in when what's happening? And there's like that to me, like lucid dreamy sometimes feels a little bit like I'm fighting myself, like I'm trying to like both have control and not have too much control so that it's still a dream. And yeah, I it just feels almost similar to what you're talking about. This like stuck in the imagination with a different energy around it.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yeah, that definitely sounds very familiar to that. Uh similar. Yeah. That's cool. You lucid dream. I mean, I'm just thinking about that. But but yeah. Very rarely. I I think it, I think it is similar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

The the way people externalize it too, like when you finally get someone to talk about those thought loops, uh, it just it feels a little different than other concerns might feel too. I usually notice like a pressured nervousness, if if they'll even talk about it. For some folks, they feel like just surely talking to a therapist or anyone about it will make it more likely to happen. So kudos to the folks who write in and talk about this stuff because it can be scary to even go there.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

Yeah. Our next one is uh my parents have told me I'm OCD because of how neat and orderly I kept my room growing up, how structured I need everything to be to be comfortable, the way I organize my food at meals, how I say the same greetings and goodbyes, the way I style my hair the same, because I ask the same questions a lot to make sure everyone is agreeing, and more. What is an OCD evaluation like for people with autism? My autism evaluation was very long and included school testing when I was in elementary. Is there a way I can know if I have OCD without going to an evaluation?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah, so it sounds like we we've got some of those pop culture-y vibes going on. Oh, your OCD. At least that's my impression so far from what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Um a lot of those were very pop culture-y.

unknown 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

A lot of them are so common for autistic folks.

unknown 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

You know, the way you organize your food, does that mean it it can't touch? Does that mean it's like you eat favorite first or favorite last? So curious to know more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Right. Okay, well, take the food not touching example. What comes to mind for me is like, okay, if it was OCD, what would happen if some of the food did touch? And does it feel like, oh my God, there's this like dread, deep, like, ah, fear that if it touches, that that means something? Deep down, there's often what's called this feared self. So, like, you know, fear of being a a messy person who's reckless and contaminating everything and just messing up all over the place. And I don't know. So it ha it'd be like, is there something tied to it underneath that they're afraid of would happen if the food's touching that it would like represent about them or like yeah, be too much to handle versus a more autistic, like same food preference. Um just enjoying it. Yeah, sensory-wise, if it's something sensory is probably a big reason for the different foods not touching. Good point. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like all that makes sense from an autistic lens.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

Similar with the how I say the same greetings and goodbyes. We're known to have little catchphrases or the same intonations in the way we say things. But like what Chris is saying, I'm I would wonder, is there some dread under if I don't greet this person this exact way, then they're they're gonna get hurt or they're gonna get sick, or I'm gonna get hurt.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah.

unknown 20:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

The friendship won't pan out if I don't do it in the orders that I needed it to. It sounds to me like, because one of the things that concerns me a lot in the therapist space, um, and kind of in in general, but I think therapists some in some ways like lead the way on this, is the way that like we conflate neurodivergence with only ADHD and autism. Very rarely people will also include OCD, but then you're looking for an assessor and you're looking for someone neuroaffirming, but maybe they only know about autism and they don't know a lot about OCD. And so like that kind of nuance being just pulled out. I would think that if they wanted an assessment, um, especially as someone who's already been diagnosed with autism, they'd want someone very like specially trained in both autism and OCD. Does that feel useful?

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, absolutely. You definitely would want somebody confident and in OCD and what it looks like and being able to differentiate rather than just yeah, diagnostic overshadowing is the term when, like, oh, I'm just gonna assume it's cause you're this without actually like parsing it apart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

That does happen quite a bit, yeah. So for this person or anyone who's Who's interested, you know, this one's asking, like, what is an OCD evaluation like for people with autism? What do you how would you describe it? I know you do assessments, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yeah. Yeah, I'm really trying to to collaboratively figure out and get insight into with the person, like what is actually happening underneath. For example, let's talk about masking for a second. This is an interesting thing where there's a bit of a fine line, I think. Masking in general, you know, doing things to try to survive, code switching, looking different, um, saying things differently, et cetera. But then often for a lot of autistic people, there might be like a replaying afterward of the social encounter, et cetera. When it veers into OCD territory is when it'd be like, well, I must have been weird. Ah, I know I was weird. How do I know if I wasn't weird? What if they don't like me anymore? Blah, blah, blah, I'm such a fuck up and they saw it, and uh, and like repetitively like going in a spiral where you're so awful and gonna be found out. Um, then I'd say you're in more of that obsessive land. There's a couple different like forms of treatment, I'd say. It's a slight tangent, but in case it's helpful. There's ERP, which is like the classical one that you'll hear of, like exposure response prevention, where the idea is helping the person have the obsessive doubt, um, thought, image, whatever it is, without doing the compulsion and learning they can tolerate it. Whereas this newer frame called ICBT, I as an inference, this one is thought to be more neurodiversity firming and is getting more popular. And it teaches the um like the logic of OCD and like how to notice that that point when you veer into imagination land. And that could be helpful for autistic people to kind of like learn how it's actually operating.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Imagine, especially with how like, because I know that there are a lot of critiques about um ERP and the autistic community, because so many autistic folks have been asked to essentially like tolerate and like expose themselves to like sensory overwhelm, and that like that's never gonna go away through an ERP thing, only it will only get more masked or something like that. And so I imagine that ICBT might be also just uh safer to try so that if you're not like sure, is this an OCD thing or is this an autism thing, you can try it this way and see what what you can like parse apart without accidentally doing more harm if it is an autism thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah, that's a good good point, good idea. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's getting more and more popular. So if looking for a provider to help parse it out or to to work through it and treat it, ICBT is a cool thing to look for in a therapist.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

I was in a consult group a couple months ago now, and somebody was an OCD specialist and they were talking about how they're starting to learn how to use parts work for OCD. And it sounds like there are some contraindications sometimes where you wouldn't want to use that for specific clients, and it might actually reinforce things, but that could be a cool route that's coming out soon too, or people figuring out how to do the parts work and looking at that self-doubt as a part and the fear as a part, and what does what are those parts of you need? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

I like it. That's good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

I'm just gonna say it sounds like when looking for an evaluation, it might not be quite as like structured and intensive as an autonomo evaluation, but it might still be a few of the kind of springers, and then maybe a more in-depth interview style um conversation to kind of parse things apart with a lot of nuance, especially if you're autistic.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah, I'd say that's definitely um what what I would want in an assessment. They they might give checklists and stuff, but yeah, if you can find somebody who's willing to actually like discuss it, that that would be good. Um a lot of the neurodiversity affirming providers were tending to be more collaborative and therapeutic in the way we do assessments and and have more like interviewee back and forth style. So hopefully, you know, it's it's out there more and more. There's something else I wanted to say. No, I just forgot it. Ah, go ahead if you add a thing and I'll I'll come back to it.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

When it comes back, interrupt us.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

Yeah, I'll try. Yeah. I was just over here chuckling, like, wow. Who would have thought that interviewing people and hearing their side of things during an assessment could be useful? It's just so wild how the the medical model used to do things and how people are shifting.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Who would have thought? No, it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

It makes me wonder how the medical model ever got anybody right. Does that make sense? Like how they accurately diagnosed anyone within that system, if that is how to like how they were doing it. It's so confusing to me.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

You know, Chris, so this person also said their autism eval back in elementary school included school testing. I assume that for OCD, they won't have to do like IQ testing or any of those like processing speed type of tests.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

No, um, I I don't think those would be helpful. The only thing that just came to mind as potentially helpful is like the Roarshock. But unfortunately, a lot of people don't give that anymore. That's like that old school projective test with like, what do you see?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

They did one of those with me at the hospital.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah, when I was a teenager. Um, God, I wish I could remember or had access to any of my documentation from that. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah, that'd be interesting.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

I was hospitalized as a teenager, and and one of the tests that they did on me in the hospital was um was a roar chat.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Huh, that's cool. Yeah, because in theory, like that might pick up some of the underlying like thought processes and DAO and stuff. But other than that, like the um the school testing, IQ and stuff, that that's to see like sp if there's like a spiky profile, right? Like cognitive struggles, differences, needing learning support. Whereas OCD, this is much more like like I would call it a secondary mental health disorder. It's like on top of neurodevelopmental stuff, it's clinical, and it really deserves talking through it. Um, the thing I thought of before, I I just pulled up the Y B O C S or Y Box as you call it, Kate. For example, one of the obsessions that you could check the box. I fear doing something embarrassing. Yeah.

unknown 28:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

In the instructions, like they tell us to define like the intensity that it has to meet. But I think that also, though, for some of us who are very strong feelers, it's tough to know, like, well, does that qualify based on this person who wrote this definition, or who do I compare myself to?

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Right. And we have a tendency to be a little literal too, you know, whereas in theory, a neurotypical person might be more prone to be like, well, not most of the time. So whatever, you know. Whereas we might be prone more to being like, well, yeah, sometimes that happens. So yeah. But but you know, case in point, like fearing doing something embarrassing, often that that's a learned rational fear for a lot of autistic people.

unknown 29:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

And ADHD is too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Like that's such an interesting, like, hey, so we're pretty sure you might have a doubt, um, doubt-based nervous system, let's call it, right? Um, so we're gonna have you answer these questions that are super open-ended and kind of strange and make sure that you have a doubt. Like, does that make sense? Like the like, uh, I I you know, I'm afraid of doing something embarrassing would make me any doubt. Like, oh, like is that like normal? Am I not supposed to be embarrassed by anything? Like, how often are people like that? Would just get so much more in my head if that was how my nervous system worked.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Yeah, that's funny. That's true. Yeah. And something like that also is where the conversation helps. Because if someone says, Oh yeah, that's me, and you go, Okay, yeah, tell me more. When do you feel that fear the most? And they say something like, at school, because you know, earlier this year somebody did something embarrassing and got recorded, posted on TikTok, it just sucks for that person. Maybe not. If they say, Well, because if I do something embarrassing, I'm not gonna get accepted into college, something's going to be recording me and it's gonna put it out there, everyone's gonna know about it, I'll never be able to live it down. I'm gonna embarrass my family. Like, if there's this story, yeah, that usually leads me to be like, okay, I think we're on OCD territory.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yeah, that's a good example. It makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:43

Cool. Well, um, and you know, the final part of that question was, is there a way I can know if I have OCD without going to an evaluation? So we kind of answered that a little in the last one where, yeah, there's some some tests online. I think you can also listen to other folks who have OCD and see if that that story, that narrative they've got kind of mirrors your experiences. But it also sounds like going in for the eval with someone who knows how to do those evals might get you a little further into like the treatment world and support.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Well said. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Cool. Shall we head over to our uh fancy after hours program?

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Ooh. Yeah, let's go to the bonus content. Sweet.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Okay, so we're gonna hop over to Patreon to record our guest bonus content. Hit me again, which should uh now be streaming on a pro private podcast stream for our paid members. Tier starting as low as $4 a month. Um, and your support as paid members helps us to fund the main podcast. So we are so, so appreciative. Thank you so much for listening and for Patreoning, patroning, whatever. Um, uh over there on the bonus content, we're gonna talk about how to tell if it's limerence, a special interest, or OCD that's causing this listener uh to quote unquote stalk their crush. Um, so we're gonna get into kind of those different ways of being very intensely interested in somebody. So if you want to hear it, make sure to head over to Patreon and get a listen in. And then you can also expect new episodes weekly on Tuesdays. You can find Carissa on Facebook or Instagram at Divergent Pathways or check out her links in the show notes. You can find Kate at Cryptid Learns, me at Radical Insights Consulting on Facebook or Instagram. You can add a dot com to either one of those for our websites. You can follow the podcast on Facebook and Instagram at Xes Up Your Sleeve Pods. You can interact with us and see when new episodes release. If you have questions for us, we want your questions, we eat them up, yum. Um, please visit neurokink.org slash a uys and send it our way. We'll see you over on Patreon.