Aces Up Your Sleeve
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Aces Up Your Sleeve
Learning to Drive for Autistics & ADHDers
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We’re covering the complexities of driving as an autistic, ADHD, or AuDHDer this week on the podcast! A parent wants to know how to encourage their teen, so we’re sharing some main considerations. We’re also discussing why there’s so much stigma out there for non-drivers, especially in the United States. Whether you’re driving vehicles or not, this episode may resonate with your experiences! (Special shout-out to therians who decide not to drive!)
On Upping the Ante, our bonus content over on Patreon, we’re sharing our horror stories about being behind the wheel! Kade calls the cops on himself and Sabrina has to call the cops to help her after a hit-and-run… and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. (If car accident and related tales are upsetting for you, you might want to skip this one.)
To ask us questions, fill out the form at www.neurokink.org/auys
Find more content on Patreon (18+): www.patreon.com/AcesUpYourSleevePodcast
Sabrina at www.radicalingingishtsconsulting.com or @radicalinsightsconsulting on social media (FB, IG)
Kade at www.cryptidlearns.com or @cryptidlearns on social media (FB, IG)
This is the Aces Up Your Sleeve podcast, and we're the Aces Up Your Sleeve in relationships from romantic to workplace, parental to platonic, your relationship with yourself and everything in between. Let us, two autistic aspect kinky therapists, be your secret weapon in neurodivergent life.
SPEAKER_01This is your disclaimer. This is not therapy or therapeutic advice, and we are not on the clock. This is for entertainment purposes only. This is not a replacement for therapy. What you'll hear are our thoughts on different topics, what we might do in the situation, and how we've supported others through similar things.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna be talking about driving today. We got a few questions. I forgot to check on Google Scholar, but I meant to go look up the research to see like, is there actually a statistical uh value for when ADHD's nautistic folks learn how to drive?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I have no idea. I would imagine you even if there was I don't really trust any of the stats. Yeah. Um, because so many people by the time that they're the quote unquote typical driving age haven't been identified yet. I think those stats would be really hard to tell.
SPEAKER_00A while ago they had had a survey back when I worked in community mental health, so like eight, ten years ago, and the survey had said that the average age was over 21 for an autistic person to get their license. So even with a small sample size, that at least tells us that a good portion of identified folks get it later in life, if at all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So which I also wonder what are the contributing factors to that, right? Like, is there infantilization that is meaning that like their caregivers are not letting them or allowing them or bringing them or supporting them in that if that is a goal? Is it that it's just actively not a goal for them?
SPEAKER_00You know, a lack of resources. And I wonder too how many driver's ed curriculum and instructors are like prepared but also excited to work with knowingly autistic folks. Yeah. You know, or if some people would say, Oh, this may not be the driver's ed for your kid because of the stereotypes they know or stigma.
SPEAKER_01I was like a young black autistic person a few years ago who had some kind of experience where they had a small accident and then it was like a big crisis. Police got involved and it was like a whole big I don't remember all the details, and it's escaping me right now. And and a lot of the commentary was around like you shouldn't be driving this and that and the third, even though they got their license and had been clear, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's it's a complex topic for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's got a lot of ableism steeped in it. Well, just out of curiosity, too, listeners, if you would drop in the comments, you know, what age did you learn how to drive? If you did, uh were you interested in driving? Did it take a while for you to have an interest? Have you never been interested?
SPEAKER_01And like particularly what age did you learn to drive, and was it similar for other peers? Like, I know in New York not a lot of folks get their licenses, like in New York City, because why? I don't know if you've ever been in New York and seen people drive there. It's hell. You could not like there's no amount of like money, fame, power, love, joy, relationship on this planet that would get me to drive a car in New York City.
SPEAKER_00There. That's how most people feel about Seattle, and so a lot of folks, even if they know how to drive, they stop having cars and car insurance and just ride the uh public transit.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Yeah, so you know, obviously taking that into account. When did you learn to drive?
SPEAKER_00I was trying to think about that, knowing that this episode was coming up, and I definitely did driver's ed when I was in high school, but I mean I think I've shared on the podcast before my dad was like terminally ill. So it got pushed out, and I don't think I actually got my driver's license until I was 18 officially. But nothing really to do with my neurodivergence.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01How about you? Yeah, I so I did driver's ed at like 14 and a half or whatever to 15, whatever it is, where you like do it right up until the right time for you to get your permit. Got my permit on time, did my stuff, and but by the time that I was 16, I was living in Wisconsin. So I learned how to drive by North Carolina laws and based on what we have on our tests. And in Wisconsin, they also, at least when I was doing this a decade ago more now, Jesus Christ. Um they had parallel parking, and in North Carolina they didn't. And so I didn't learn how to parallel park, and so I failed that part of my driver's test. And so, and there really wasn't like my uncle wasn't gonna be able to afford to get me a car, like there really wasn't a reason, and I was planning to move back home anyway, like as I flew home on the day of my like high school graduation, like on the day of the ceremony instead of going to that, I just flew back home, and so we really didn't see the point in me like trying to figure out what I would need for Wisconsin and doing that. So I waited until I got home, so I also got mine at 18. But it also wasn't directly due to neurodivergence, it was more so just I like weirdly moved and didn't have good reason to need it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's interesting though, that it for both of us it was 18. And I wonder how many other life circumstances pushed that number up to 21 for the average back then.
SPEAKER_01I also wonder, like, because even with that, right, like if there are ways in which neurodivergence is like touching that that aren't clear, right? Like that, yeah, your dad was was terminally ill, and it might be that like an holistic person or neuronormative person, a neurotypical person might have still made the decision to go ahead and get theirs on time or what have you, or you know, me like having moved that definitely some of my move had to do with neurodivergence. But then also if they just would have like found it more important, or you know what I mean? Like if there are ways that we can't really see how it impacted it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I mean, definitely being in a household of unknowingly neurodivergent adults, and then one becomes ill and you have no transportation to get to the driving uh practices or the like those is kind of a trickle-down, not necessarily my neurodivergence, but other folks, so I didn't have the resources to get over there. And yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wait, your your stuff wasn't through your school.
SPEAKER_00No. Now here you have to pay separately, so I almost didn't get to go because it was quite expensive.
SPEAKER_01Mine was through my high school. So it was just an after school. You just stayed after class. Oh. So school would let out, people would go home, but you would stay and go to this one room, and that was where driver's ed was. And then same thing for the like driving portion was from the school.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's really nice. No, you have to there was a lot more executive functioning steps uh and a lot more financial. Yeah. I'm curious. Yeah, if you're already typing a comment about when you learned how to drive and got your license, if you could also add, was your driver's ed through school, did you have to pay for it? Did you just learn from some adult and not driver's ed?
SPEAKER_01Or like if it, yeah, if it was a different even if it wasn't like through the school technically, like did was it attached and and facilitated by the school? Because I don't remember a lot of that time of my life, but I don't remember if it was like if we paid a separate fee, I imagine so. But like it if it was through, but I just know that like, yeah, it it wasn't outside of the school. And then when I moved home at 18 and was gonna go and take the test, we hired a private tutor just to like get some of that practice back. Because like I had been driving on my permit a little bit, but my uncle had a giant awful truck. No, thank you. Fair, yeah. Yeah, I mostly drove when I like drove my grandma's car.
SPEAKER_00Oh I also had to take a couple brush up lessons before I felt confident, and maybe that's part of the neurodivergence. Maybe others would not have needed to, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I'll be interested to see what folks say.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we can talk some more about those personal stories of successes and uh horror stories and whatever else we've got to share on the bonus content, but let's jump into these questions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The first one says, Hello Sabrina and Cade, my teen is newly 15 and doesn't want to sign up for driver's ed or get a learning permit for driving. Their friends are excited, so I don't understand why they aren't. They say driving isn't for them. They're unique in many ways as an agender Audi HD Therion, so perhaps this is more uniqueness. I know that driving is an asset in our city and that it will improve their independence as well as their freedom. How can I encourage them to take up driver's ed? What am I missing here?
SPEAKER_01Hmm. You know how my brain works. I always want to start with like, why is it important to you that they drive? And like there can be very logistic. Like, that's kind of one of the challenges with driving specifically, is it like there are some very specific logistical things that become much easier once someone is driving.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this person says it's an asset in our city, it'll improve their freedom. So I wonder if they've got a kid who likes to go out and do a bunch of things and it'll make it easier. Yeah. That's tough.
SPEAKER_01So, I mean, in in terms of encouraging them, why don't we start there? Because that was the first question, right? I do think that if it is a matter of they have a lot going on and it's a lot for me to try to keep up with all the different things, being really realistic about like, hey, I can no longer commit to driving you to all of these different things. I'm happy to help you navigate public transportation and you know, Uber and Lyft. And I'm also happy to help you navigate driver's ed and things like that. I'm also happy to help you figure out like what is it about that that's hard because I don't just want to force you to do the thing in that way. But I can't continue to commit to driving you every night of the week to X, Y, and Z activity, but I still want you to be able to go. So, like, here are the options that you have, which one feels most worth trying first, how I would label that right, um, to see if that might work instead. There becomes a dichotomy and a big either-or around either I continue to do this whole thing for somebody always, or they have to do it all on their own perfectly. And we forget all of the shades of gray inside of that. And so I do think that like trying to come up with what those shades of gray might be and talking them through together could open some doors.
SPEAKER_00Especially if it doesn't sound like a punishment of, hey, you're 15 now and you can drive, so since you can, I'm gonna stop XYZ, but more of, you know, I can only sustain this level that we've been doing, or I'm gonna have to take a step back because of XYZ. So how can we get you some other routes to be able to still do the same stuff?
SPEAKER_01Right. Because I also know that a lot of parents do plan things around like, okay, and then when my kid starts driving at 16, I will be able to commit this energy elsewhere. So like I am signing them up for theater that they wanted to do, and that's totally fine. I'm totally good with that. And I'm good with that commitment from now when they're 13 to when they're 16 and driving. And that's kind of what they prepare themselves for. Again, not that that has to mean that there's no wiggle room on their end or things like that, but we don't want to get into a spot of like, no, you're their parent, you absolutely have to, or you're bad. Instead, finding that middle ground of like, hey, it makes sense that like once your kid is eligible to drive, you at least are hoping that they would put that effort in. And don't forget that there are ride shares. When I was in high school, again, like I didn't drive. And so my like friends were really my my ride places. I got rides home from school all the time. Like, hey, I really want to go to this event. Do you want to go with me? And also, can you drive? Because my friend was the one with the car and the license.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think that could be a great option too if your kid really is not up for learning to drive. And if, you know, you said Audi HD Therion agender. If public transit may not be the safest, I don't know where you all live. Carpooling is a great option, and it also gives you a chance to talk about, you know, how do we ask for favors and how do we compensate when someone is doing a lot of favors and what does that conversation look like?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I would be curious to know more about them saying driving isn't for them. Is it too many, too many steps, too much executive functioning and overwhelming? Is it sensory overload? Do they have a tough time with directions? Do they have a tough time with fine motor skills and even gross motor skills, you know, moving their body in ways to have quick reactions on a steering wheel or with the brakes or the gas? There could be a lot of reasons that they feel driving isn't for them. And I I don't know that you can encourage someone until you hear their concerns because they might have some concerns that are not as uh workable and supportable as others.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. For a good long while, especially like once I moved home and got my license, I was like, I hate driving. I don't love it now, but I was very much in a like, I don't know that I'm ever going to be able to do this by myself long term. It's not dissimilar to how I felt about doing one-on-one therapy.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_01When I was in high school and I was starting to figure out like what I want to do. First, I wanted to be an English teacher, high school English teacher. And then once I settled on psychology and that interest, I was like, I don't think I could ever because I was in therapy. I've been in therapy my whole life. And so, like, I would sit there and I would talk to my therapist, but like, I don't think I could ever do what you do. I had an idea in my head of what this would look like, right? And it was what my experience was in that with her and from my perspective of what she must be experiencing, right? So there's a lot of assumptions going on there. And I did the exact same thing with driving, where I was like, I think that like it's too scary, it's too overwhelming, like there's too much power and expectation and all of these things. I I just don't foresee myself doing this by myself. I absolutely could have said in easily driving isn't for me. And now, like, I don't for a while I liked it, and then for a while, I'm just like, it gets me from where I am to where I want to go on my timeline and on my schedule and in the comfort of my own space. I'm totally like okay with it now. But I also wonder if that might be part of it. I've never been good at imagining things that I haven't done or haven't done frequently, and so a lot of times like this is macabre. Um, and we can cut this if we need to. But this is also part of my suicidality when I was a teenager, was like, I can't imagine myself living as an adult and having a job and not being in like the confines of school. That's just not how my brain works. And so, like, I wonder if maybe their Audi HD brain also just like, no, I don't drive, I sit in the passenger seat. You know what I mean? I sit in the back, whatever that is. It's not for me because I can't imagine myself doing it because I haven't done it.
SPEAKER_00I'm with you on that. I think I was super hesitant to learn how to drive too, although I wanted to because everybody else is learning too, and I don't want to fall behind on that. But m my bigger concern than just, you know, what will it feel like to be the driver was what about all the other drivers? Because it's not statistically insignificant, the amount of crashes that happen and the the amount of people who get injured. And I don't live in I mean, the traffic here is not as brutal as larger cities, but some of the drivers are just very inconsiderate. So if you chat with that team, you might be able to figure out like, is it a fear of the other drivers? Is it a well, I've never done it, so I don't know what that'll feel like. Is it intrusive thoughts being like, well, if I'm behind the wheel, I'm gonna turn into a building or a canyon or whatever is nearby? You know, I think all of those are a lot more common for Audi HDers than for allistic non-ADHD kids and teens. Definitely. Do you think maybe driver's ed is too big of a leap? I wonder what it would feel like to be like, how how about I just teach you how to drive, I'll be in the driver's seat, you be there. We do that a few times and see how it goes without any pressure for them to ever have to get in that driver's seat.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. My very first experiences driving were like in my own neighborhood or in the parking lot of my like middle school, because it was right across the street from where we lived. My therapist's office when I was a teenager was in like a weird like office park that had like kind of out-of-the-way winding roads and little parking lots and stuff. And so I I would kind of practice there before therapy. Like it was those kind of places, and even my nephew, like that's where he learned to drive too, was in the parking lot of his high school. We all packed in the car and you know, did the jerks of of a high schooler learning to drive. But I think that those can also be kind of nice because yeah, you're like you're with your safe person, your parent, and can do some of that. Now, I also think that it then is incumbent upon the parent to be as mindful as they can about the like, oh my god, like that kind of reaction that we can sometimes get. Um, I even get that I'm not a parent just when I'm like driving with other people who are driving in a different way than I would. I get a little of that because I'm so used to being the driver. Um and so, you know, you you'd want to school some of that uh for yourself a little bit.
SPEAKER_00And making sure that there's not a dynamic between you and your kid that's gonna make it tough to learn how to drive. Yeah. I I don't think my sister would mind me sharing this because she's shared it with lots of folks. But after my dad passed, you know, she was only 13. So when driver's ed time came around for her, I was like, Well, mom works full-time, so I guess I'm teaching you how to drive. And she got so emotional the first time we went out, and we barely went like down the block, and she just felt like she was letting me down, just sobbing. And I was like, I didn't even like I'm the calmest, most like it's been fine. She just was like, I cannot learn with you. I feel like I'm gonna be a failure and let you down, and I don't want to let you down, and like the grief mixed in with that of not wanting to lose anybody, and so she had to learn with mom. But if I if she had never said that and just felt that anxiety every time we got in the car to practice, there's no way she would have ever gotten her license.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, because you also have to think like our bodies can't tell all the time. So, like, it gets stuck of this feeling of like I'm anxious because I'm driving, when that's not what's actually happening, but the nervous things, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Also, in this question, when we think along that lines of the body will just do things, is there some motion sickness? Are there some vision challenges? Are there other reasons that it uh depth perception issues, other reasons that this kid or teen might be like, I can't. This is not for me.
SPEAKER_01Also thinking of like what would your expectations of them be, right? So in the same way as when I work with teenagers who like are a little afraid of getting better because of what their caregivers might begin to expect of them, right? Once they're better versus the lowered expectation of someone who's struggling, you know, if I can't drive, you can't expect me to run out and get groceries, you know, right after school, or uh you can't expect me to fill the car up with gas or you know, do these other types of things versus maybe I really like driving with you, right? And so if I'm possibly gonna lose my time with you when when you drive me to things, that might also make me not want to drive.
SPEAKER_00That's a great point, because I know a lot of those I don't think parents and guardians really think of that ahead of time most of the time. It just kind of happens of like, oh, well, I I'm quite busy with whatever I'm doing here. Can you just you're watching TV, can you pop out and grab uh the pickup order or grab some takeout or something? And then it starts to become an increasing demand, so it's a good point to kind of preemptively think what might you expect of them, who's paying for gas, what car are they using? Some of those conversations might also make them more or less interested in learning if there's not other reasons that they're not.
SPEAKER_01Let me ask you this. You work more with like therians and know a little bit more about that than I do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Firstly, should we define that term for listeners?
SPEAKER_00We should pull up a real like therian definition, though. I won't take a stab at it because I might misphrase something.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Hold on. I don't love any of these definitions, but I think it's because there's not really a perfect way to do it. Fair. One way that Therians define themselves, uh, someone who involuntarily identifies partially or entirely, and on a non-physical level, as a non-human animal that exists or has existed in the past on Earth. Many listeners may not be familiar with that, but that's kind of what this person's talking about, and there's a lot of nuance to specific Therians and and how they how they identify who they are. So without knowing all the context, you bring up a good point in that that is a consideration too, because some of the Therians I know have no intention of ever getting behind the wheel in that way. And some of them don't even enjoy being in vehicles as a passenger either.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, if I identify strongly with a non-human animal, non-human animals don't drive.
SPEAKER_00And there might be other forms of transport to look at other than carpools or buses or whatever monorail. You might instead be looking at bicycle, uh running shoes and learning the right strategies for long travel through running or walking. Horses.
SPEAKER_01Uh depending on. Um, but you know, just thinking of like what dysphoria might come from trying to like again, right? This phrase of like driving isn't for me. I could imagine it being somewhat dysphoric to try to drive if I'm identifying with a non-human animal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it really depends on on them and what their understanding of their self is. But again, if you get curious about the it's not for me statement, then hopefully some of that will come up if you if you're creating like a safe space for that to come up.
SPEAKER_01Definitely. So good luck.
SPEAKER_00I I would definitely encourage you when you have that conversation not to. Have that undertone or slant of well, well, why did you say that? Because I want to help calm your fears and make it possible. Just go in there with real curiosity, regardless of what the outcome is.
SPEAKER_01One of the things that I really think is deeply important for all people to learn how to do for themselves and for others, is to be like curious without intent. The intent is not let my curiosity drive us to a way to get them into driver's ed, right? Like there isn't an outcome like that, right? It goes into something I talk about a lot of like the concept of effectiveness is towards a goal, and you have to be really clear on your goal. So if your goal is I'm going into this conversation so that I can get them to driver's ed, that seems like it's probably gonna fuck you up, depending on where they're kind of sitting with it, right? Like that gets coercive really quickly and isn't really curiosity. But instead, if the goal is like I need to understand what's going on, period. Not so that I can XYZ, not so that I can ABC, it's just I need to understand what's going on. Like I just don't have a full understanding and I would like one. That is more likely to mean that you're going to stay in that curiosity and like have a really productive conversation.
SPEAKER_00And it'll feel more supportive than one that has an angle to it. Yep. Exactly. If you're a guardian and you're hearing that and you're like, how do you even have those conversations? Uh Dr. Ross Green does a lot around like collaborative problem solving, so I would Google him. Our next question says, You two said to write in with something you haven't heard yet, so I'm writing to tell you I'm 43 and cannot drive. I've never been interested. In fact, I'm afraid to do it. I've never taken a driving lesson or had a parent put me in the driver's seat. I will simply never do it. I don't need advice on driving, but I am interested to know why you two think there is so much negative talk about non-drivers. Did I perplex you with my existence?
SPEAKER_01I it would take so much to perplex me with your existence. Um, but I appreciate you trying. That means a lot to me.
SPEAKER_00We did ask to be stumped. If anyone wants to stump us with a genuine question or or story, we're open to it.
SPEAKER_01I love it. So my area where I live in North Carolina, it it's it's pretty hard. We don't have very good public transit. Um, so like when I I used to bust in when I was in grad school because I went to grad school at UNC Chapel Hill, and parking is just absolute nightmarish. And especially once I had my car accident, it was just not realistic for me to like hike essentially to class. So like I would bus in, but the only public transport that I know that's free is free for students in Chapel Hill. The rest of the triangle does not have free public transportation, it's all paid. Um, and I even think that the Chapel Hill transit is paid if you're not a student, you have to like fill out a specific thing. And so I would park and ride, is what it was called. So you park somewhere and then the bus comes around and gets you. And it really added like three hours to my day each way. Like it it genuinely added even when I parked the closest to campus that I could, I would pay to park there. So you do pay to park at the thing. You also still have to drive just to get to the drive to the park and ride because I was living in Durham at the time, and this is in Chapel Hill. Not super far, but like a little uh little 30-minute drive. Park, pay, wait for the bus, get on the bus. Bus drives over, bus is slow, right? Bus has to make other stops and all this stuff. Get off bus, walk to the building, and then wait for bus on the way home and backwards again. I don't know that many people who are adults who don't drive for the primary reason that it is very hard to live where I live and not be able to drive. But it also is something that like the people that I know that don't drive budget in Ubers Lifts and buying friends coffee for a ride.
SPEAKER_00And I think there is so much negative talk about non-drivers because it deflects from the real problem, which is we don't have good infrastructure for people who need extra support like that or who would be better served by public transit. So it's easier to blame the individuals who just can't learn to drive for whatever reason or won't learn, what however they phrase it, than it is to say we need a rework in our city, state, country.
SPEAKER_01So it's definitely that. It's definitely we in the United States at the very least, but I would argue in most Western cultures and societies, and individualistic cultures and societies, right? Which, by the way, do you remember getting the propaganda about how much better it was to be an individualistic culture in like middle school social studies? Did you get the same propaganda that I got?
SPEAKER_00I had very liberal history and politics teachers, so no. We had somebody come in and talk, John Kerry or something at the time, and yeah, no.
SPEAKER_01See, okay, I actually okay, I'm that's not on the podcast story. But we just we got a lot of like we had a whole like section in unit where we learned about the difference between individualistic culture and a collectivist culture, and how bad a collectivist culture, like not bad, but like how much better an individualistic culture was, like why, you know, it serves the people better, all these things, right? And how this was just putting pressure on everyone to be the same and the that like that is why there's so much negative talk, right? Is because we can't look collectivistically at where our system's failing everybody. We have to look at each individual human, any suffering they experienced is because of their own choices, which also gets a little bit into some bioessentialism shit, right? Of like it's a choice not to drive, and because it's a choice, you're a problem. Because there's a similarity here, right, with like anti-fatness, where we look at your fat body as a problem and not we didn't build chairs big enough for you, and that's actually the problem, right? Like we made a choice not to have chairs that fit your body, so now you can't sit down, and that that's because you made a choice, and so yeah, I think that a lot of it is this view where I actually think that wanting or not wanting to drive is neutral and not necessarily a choice that people are making. Like some people are absolutely making it, and some people are just like it terrifies me, or it is so stressful on my body, or I literally can't keep up with all of the because like you really need to be able to like move your attention very quickly over a period of time all the time, and you have to stay completely focused that whole time that you're driving. Not everyone can do that.
SPEAKER_00No, it's a lot of splitting your attention, and it's a lot of sensory input, and if you've got someone else in the car, social input, and yeah. I think also, you know, next season we've got Aubrey Lancaster coming on to talk a little bit about the relationship escalator and how there are these milestones that are considered important in a normative relationship. I think that's the same with those kind of m milestones of growing up. Like, oh, you're you're gonna be 16 soon, you should look into your driver's license and driver's ed. Oh, you're gonna be 18 soon, now you can play the lottery or whatever, you know, and at 21, now you can drink, you can enlist in the army at 18, you know, all the things that escalate. And I think when you don't follow those norms, people think it's uh something wrong or bad to not do that and to not want to do it, and they don't want to question why someone would, you know, they just want to hate on the thing they don't understand.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, it's even so like culturally universal that like in the Sims games that had cars in them, all of them had like they all drive. You could teach yeah, like you taught your teenager to drive, and that would be a a milestone, right? That they would that they would do. And even on was it the Sims 2 or the Sims 3? One of them, I think it was the Sims 3, you would like watch as they like the car would like kind of go caddy wampus, and then like they it would kind of straighten out and they would get better at it. It's such a cultural touchstone, but I do think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I think the negative talk is this idea that like, but you should want that, and I think it also ties a lot into you should want to be free in that way, you should want to be independent and not rely on others, and so you know, people who are constantly asking for a ride or you know, who consistently need to be picked up or this and that, it's really interesting too. I'm re-watching Charmed right now, and so I'm on season three, and Charmed came out before I was born, so I don't really care about it. But spoiler alert, if you don't want to hear about charmed spoilers, uh skip like ahead some. Um, but like Prue's about to die, but right now Prue is the only one of the three of them with a car, and yeah, and like Phoebe never has a I don't even know that she gets a car at any point during during the whole show, but like she just consistently needs rides, right? Oh no, Pi Piper maybe has a car. Yeah, she does, she has like a her same old piece of shit car when they jump 10 years in the future, but like for the most part, Phoebe just rides with Prue, and they're the two that like don't get along and all the stuff, but it's just kind of and they live in Seattle, so there's there's that connect as well. I think it's really interesting. There's a person that I follow, Possibility Maven, who talks about like relationship is the most abundant resource on the planet, and I think that this really highlights how we're so afraid to engage with it because like not driving does mean that you have to have relationships, it necessitates a hey, can we go? Because also, even in the time of Uber and taxi and all this stuff, I'm not taking an Uber to Charlotte, which for folks who don't know is three hours from me.
SPEAKER_00Or when it's like $50 to go 10 minutes or less away, you know, like that is let me tell you that adds up fast.
SPEAKER_01It really does, and also like it's a super huge inconvenience for the person driving. One time I took an Uber from Greensboro back to Durham, back to my house in Durham, which is like an hour at like two in the morning, and I felt so bad because I was like, now you just have to drive all the all the way home. Obviously, paid and tipped well and all the things, but I think that a lot of the negative talk comes from the fact that it would mean becoming a burden to someone to not be driving, or it would cost a lot of money for a lot of folks in a lot of places. It limits, but that's a choice like that we make that it limits you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Thanks for writing in. I hope we covered it. I see you don't want any advice, but I think you bring up a good point. There is a lot of negative talk out there about non-drivers, and it's not really justified. Uh, we'll head over to Upping the Ante and we'll kind of share some of our own driving uh horror stories, success stories, everything in between, maybe some stuff about having other autistic and ADHD friends behind the wheel and how that's gone over the years. For therapists, we are gonna have a hybrid live taping of aces and a free training called The Fundamentals of Fat Phobia and Healthism for therapists on uh September 12th. So if you want to hang out with us, it's from about 10 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. Pacific time. We'll link it in the show notes, and you'll get to see us. If you show up to that, that'll be during our little break, because this is the episode before the last episode. Next week's will be the end of season two.
SPEAKER_01The penultimate episode.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we have a cool, cool guest lined up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And then, yeah, remember that we are taking a little break in September. So next week's episode will come out regularly on Tuesday, and then after that, there will be a break, so there won't be another episode. So you want to make sure to follow us everywhere so that you can keep up. It's a good time to go back if you have missed some episodes or have been meaning to catch up. We're gonna give you some time to do so instead of just scrolling right through. Um, and then we'll be back at the end of September or I guess October is when we move back.
SPEAKER_00Should be October 6. Yeah, it's kind of exciting. So if you follow us, yeah, you'll you'll get some updates. The next episode comes out, like Sabrina's saying, next Tuesday. And you can follow me over at Cryptid Learns, and Sabrina is at the Radical Insights on Facebook or Instagram. The podcast is over at Ace Up Your Sleeve Pod on those platforms. And if you follow us over at Patreon, of course, you're gonna see all the updates probably before social media gets to see them. If you have any questions for us, you can visit neurokink.org slash AUYS and send it our way for season three. We have some really cool topics and guests lined up based on questions we've already gotten, but there's room for more. We're gonna jump over to Patreon, we'll record Upping the Ante, which is the exclusive bonus content. And if you're over there as a paid member, tier start at four bucks, you'll get access to all the bonus content. So during the break, if you wanted, you could like sign up for a month and go back and listen to all the bonus content that you've been wanting to hear.
SPEAKER_01Mm hmm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'll see you over on Patreon. It's patreon.comslash aces up your sleeve podcast. See you there. Bye bye.
